The Fundamental Problem
So...it comes down to this, I think:
How do you convince someone, who sees you as a controller and a manipulator already, that their fear of you is unfounded?
It's a Catch-22, isn't it?
I don't deny - I'm definitely a control freak at times, and I can't even swear I can eliminate that from my personality. I can probably channel it into more constructive areas (like my diet) and I can learn how to stop trying to control people.
I can also be a manipulator - anyone who's read this blog knows I've got that in me.
But - I am not a danger to anyone. I am nobody to fear. The idea itself would make me laugh if it wasn't so tragic.
I have NEVER thrown anything at anyone. I have never hit anyone in anger outside of a few schoolyard pushing matches that were over 20 years ago.
I don't scream obsenities at people, call them names, or things like that. I can't swear on this one that I've NEVER, but definitely not my wife or any loved ones.
I don't even road rage. And I am a VERY "offensive" driver - I've been known to do shit like cut people off, box them in traffic, and other road-rage LIKE behaviors, but I don't threaten, scream, shake my fist, etc.
It's so depressing it makes me want to cry. I am 100% serious about this - I am more depressed that my wife is afraid of me than I am she's having an affair. The affair is temporal, but if she really fears me this much, how can I get past that?
I know how people are - most of you are probably thinking, "Where there's smoke, there's fire." I've thought that myself of other people, now I know better. You know, someone's being investigated by child services (recently happened to a trainee of mine at work) and you just think - well, there must be SOMETHING to that, right? Well, now I know how unfair that is.
I swear on The Boy - I am not a threat to anyone's safety. I am not dangerous, I am not violent, I never will be.
I can't understand why my wife fears me this way. She admits I've never raised a hand in anger, never verbally abused her (as in, called her names. Yes, I've yelled and lost my temper while she's AROUND, but that's it. I can only remember ONE argument where I actually yelled AT her, and it wasn't names or obsenities it was just "THAT WAS NOT WHAT HAPPENED, WHY DON'T YOU BELEIVE ME" or something like that. You know?) or EVER yelled at my son. Never.
Yet, she really seems to believe I'm someone to fear. People are telling her, quote:
"The hand that throws things is a hand that can pull a trigger."
"If he's on Prozac, he shouldn't have guns in the house!" (My psychiatrist AND my therapist agree there is no danger from my guns in the house, to me or anyone else.)
"It's only a matter of time until he starts hitting you."
Gaaaah....how do you overcome something like that? Nothing I say makes a difference, because, what would a controller/manipulator DO in a situation like this except...protest his innocence and try to find examples why she does't have to worry.
It's a circular argument. I can't win it. If I don't say anything, I'm accepting the definition of "violent." If I object, I'm "hiding it" and "controlling."
I've tried to give her examples - for example, if I'm not angry NOW and wanting to freak out, after reading 19 pages of pornographic talk between my wife and her lover....when exactly DOES she think I'll lose it?
I never lost my temper at work, or in front of my Dad, or her family, or my family. She says, "That just means you hide it well - and you HAVE, you've gotten angry and stormed out of a restaurant once!" ARGH! That's my POINT - I KNOW when not to lose my temper and if I feel it happening, I'll leave a situation. She acknowledges that - I've done it once or twice in our relationship, her mother will have me worked up in anger over something and I'll just say, "I need to take a walk." That's what you are SUPPOSED to do if you have a bad temper and feel like it's slipping, aren't you?!!
I have owned guns of different types since I was 14. I have never, EVER even CONSIDERED using even the THREAT of a gun in an argument, with anyone. I've been verbally assaulted, even shoved once, by angry jerks in public places or events while carrying a handgun, and the only thing I ever worried about is that it might fall out of the holster and get me in trouble if it were seen. I take my CCW responsibility EXTREMELY seriously. When our son was 1 and barely toddling around, I got a gun safe (from her, for Christmas, but it's what I asked for) to lock up the handguns, and trigger locks for the rifle and shotgun.
I could parade a line of witnesses out who would all agree: "Yes, he's got a temper. No, he's never thrown anything at a person or hurt anyone. Yes, I've seen him get mad and "storm out" of a place, sometimes get in his car and burn rubber out the driveway in aggression. But violent towards people? No way."
Anyway...to repeat the question: How do you help someone to see that the fear they have in you is unfounded, when they fear you in this way?
How do you convince them you're OK and safe without sounding like you are trying to control them or get your way?
How do you tell them not to listen to their friends and coworkers, without sounding like a TEXTBOOK "controlling personality." I mean, look it up, one of the major signs of someone who tries to dominate their wife is, "Tells you not to believe friends. Tells you they are just out to get him. Says he is the only one you can trust."
(I have been looking it up, y'see, and I admit, I fit some of the signs, but not that stuff - I don't try to keep her in the house or away from friends or control her money or belittle her feelings or any of that stuff...)
There was smoke, there has never been fire. And now, most of the smoke is even gone. I told her, from now on, if I ever feel that kind of anger again, I'll do what I've done in all the other situations - I'll walk out the door and count to ten, or 20, or whatever.
I keep thinking - if I'm not losing my temper right now over all this, I really must have it under control. Or, maybe the Prozac is doing something, either way, it's good.
If she gets past the unfounded fears...the respect will return, then maybe the good feelings.
She tells me flat out, "I don't find you 'hot' anymore." But that's because she's feeling that way for someone else, and of course, she fears me. You can't love someone you're afraid of. You can't be attracted to someone who scares you, while you're in the throes of lust for someone else. We had a great loving passionate relationship for a long time, those feelings have to be there somewhere under the fear and anger. If nothing else, from reading those Emails, she clearly still has a passion and a sex drive, which I'd begun to doubt. It really was just ME she was rejecting, and yes, because of the way I was acting...somehow that doesn't hurt my feelings as much as it would seem it should. Maybe it'll sink in, maybe it's denial, I don't know. She insists she won't be able to feel that way again but I think if she tried, and cut off the affair for real, she might.
But stop telling me to call the guy or his wife. It's not going to work, it's going to drive the wedge in forever if I do that. It's the ultimate "controlling" move - to wit, "If -she- won't stop this affair, -I- will step in and do it FOR her!" Come ON, in this situation, you really think that's going to work? In others it probably would. At other points in this one, it might. But not now.
This fear, it's a phantom, something she built up because she assumes I'm going to "escalate" as I get older.
I try to explain to her the opposite is actually happening...I find myself getting less edgy over the years. Yes, I still had some of those raging temper tantrums in the last few years, but honestly I can think of 3 since my son was born. I'm sure a lot of you know people who "rage out" more often than that and yet aren't a danger to their families. When I was younger before I met her, I'd do things like that with far more frequency...working on my cars, fixing computers, or things like that.
I can understand what she's feeling, even a little bit of why, but how do I make her understand it's not something to toss the marriage over? I'm BETTER. Even if I do get angry, I know from now on the worst that's going to happen is maybe a shouted, "Oh FUCK!" and then me walking away, or laughing it off, or something.
It seems only time, time spent by her observing me, will ever convince her of that and that's something that's not going to happen if things continue the way they are going...
I'm very sad and depressed about this. Yet, I even hesitate to say that, because maybe I'm "controlling and manipulating" all of you reading this. I know that's what our good friend Murphy would say.
Like I said - it's a Catch-22. Circular argument. Is there a way out I don't see?
How do you convince someone, who sees you as a controller and a manipulator already, that their fear of you is unfounded?
It's a Catch-22, isn't it?
I don't deny - I'm definitely a control freak at times, and I can't even swear I can eliminate that from my personality. I can probably channel it into more constructive areas (like my diet) and I can learn how to stop trying to control people.
I can also be a manipulator - anyone who's read this blog knows I've got that in me.
But - I am not a danger to anyone. I am nobody to fear. The idea itself would make me laugh if it wasn't so tragic.
I have NEVER thrown anything at anyone. I have never hit anyone in anger outside of a few schoolyard pushing matches that were over 20 years ago.
I don't scream obsenities at people, call them names, or things like that. I can't swear on this one that I've NEVER, but definitely not my wife or any loved ones.
I don't even road rage. And I am a VERY "offensive" driver - I've been known to do shit like cut people off, box them in traffic, and other road-rage LIKE behaviors, but I don't threaten, scream, shake my fist, etc.
It's so depressing it makes me want to cry. I am 100% serious about this - I am more depressed that my wife is afraid of me than I am she's having an affair. The affair is temporal, but if she really fears me this much, how can I get past that?
I know how people are - most of you are probably thinking, "Where there's smoke, there's fire." I've thought that myself of other people, now I know better. You know, someone's being investigated by child services (recently happened to a trainee of mine at work) and you just think - well, there must be SOMETHING to that, right? Well, now I know how unfair that is.
I swear on The Boy - I am not a threat to anyone's safety. I am not dangerous, I am not violent, I never will be.
I can't understand why my wife fears me this way. She admits I've never raised a hand in anger, never verbally abused her (as in, called her names. Yes, I've yelled and lost my temper while she's AROUND, but that's it. I can only remember ONE argument where I actually yelled AT her, and it wasn't names or obsenities it was just "THAT WAS NOT WHAT HAPPENED, WHY DON'T YOU BELEIVE ME" or something like that. You know?) or EVER yelled at my son. Never.
Yet, she really seems to believe I'm someone to fear. People are telling her, quote:
"The hand that throws things is a hand that can pull a trigger."
"If he's on Prozac, he shouldn't have guns in the house!" (My psychiatrist AND my therapist agree there is no danger from my guns in the house, to me or anyone else.)
"It's only a matter of time until he starts hitting you."
Gaaaah....how do you overcome something like that? Nothing I say makes a difference, because, what would a controller/manipulator DO in a situation like this except...protest his innocence and try to find examples why she does't have to worry.
It's a circular argument. I can't win it. If I don't say anything, I'm accepting the definition of "violent." If I object, I'm "hiding it" and "controlling."
I've tried to give her examples - for example, if I'm not angry NOW and wanting to freak out, after reading 19 pages of pornographic talk between my wife and her lover....when exactly DOES she think I'll lose it?
I never lost my temper at work, or in front of my Dad, or her family, or my family. She says, "That just means you hide it well - and you HAVE, you've gotten angry and stormed out of a restaurant once!" ARGH! That's my POINT - I KNOW when not to lose my temper and if I feel it happening, I'll leave a situation. She acknowledges that - I've done it once or twice in our relationship, her mother will have me worked up in anger over something and I'll just say, "I need to take a walk." That's what you are SUPPOSED to do if you have a bad temper and feel like it's slipping, aren't you?!!
I have owned guns of different types since I was 14. I have never, EVER even CONSIDERED using even the THREAT of a gun in an argument, with anyone. I've been verbally assaulted, even shoved once, by angry jerks in public places or events while carrying a handgun, and the only thing I ever worried about is that it might fall out of the holster and get me in trouble if it were seen. I take my CCW responsibility EXTREMELY seriously. When our son was 1 and barely toddling around, I got a gun safe (from her, for Christmas, but it's what I asked for) to lock up the handguns, and trigger locks for the rifle and shotgun.
I could parade a line of witnesses out who would all agree: "Yes, he's got a temper. No, he's never thrown anything at a person or hurt anyone. Yes, I've seen him get mad and "storm out" of a place, sometimes get in his car and burn rubber out the driveway in aggression. But violent towards people? No way."
Anyway...to repeat the question: How do you help someone to see that the fear they have in you is unfounded, when they fear you in this way?
How do you convince them you're OK and safe without sounding like you are trying to control them or get your way?
How do you tell them not to listen to their friends and coworkers, without sounding like a TEXTBOOK "controlling personality." I mean, look it up, one of the major signs of someone who tries to dominate their wife is, "Tells you not to believe friends. Tells you they are just out to get him. Says he is the only one you can trust."
(I have been looking it up, y'see, and I admit, I fit some of the signs, but not that stuff - I don't try to keep her in the house or away from friends or control her money or belittle her feelings or any of that stuff...)
There was smoke, there has never been fire. And now, most of the smoke is even gone. I told her, from now on, if I ever feel that kind of anger again, I'll do what I've done in all the other situations - I'll walk out the door and count to ten, or 20, or whatever.
I keep thinking - if I'm not losing my temper right now over all this, I really must have it under control. Or, maybe the Prozac is doing something, either way, it's good.
If she gets past the unfounded fears...the respect will return, then maybe the good feelings.
She tells me flat out, "I don't find you 'hot' anymore." But that's because she's feeling that way for someone else, and of course, she fears me. You can't love someone you're afraid of. You can't be attracted to someone who scares you, while you're in the throes of lust for someone else. We had a great loving passionate relationship for a long time, those feelings have to be there somewhere under the fear and anger. If nothing else, from reading those Emails, she clearly still has a passion and a sex drive, which I'd begun to doubt. It really was just ME she was rejecting, and yes, because of the way I was acting...somehow that doesn't hurt my feelings as much as it would seem it should. Maybe it'll sink in, maybe it's denial, I don't know. She insists she won't be able to feel that way again but I think if she tried, and cut off the affair for real, she might.
But stop telling me to call the guy or his wife. It's not going to work, it's going to drive the wedge in forever if I do that. It's the ultimate "controlling" move - to wit, "If -she- won't stop this affair, -I- will step in and do it FOR her!" Come ON, in this situation, you really think that's going to work? In others it probably would. At other points in this one, it might. But not now.
This fear, it's a phantom, something she built up because she assumes I'm going to "escalate" as I get older.
I try to explain to her the opposite is actually happening...I find myself getting less edgy over the years. Yes, I still had some of those raging temper tantrums in the last few years, but honestly I can think of 3 since my son was born. I'm sure a lot of you know people who "rage out" more often than that and yet aren't a danger to their families. When I was younger before I met her, I'd do things like that with far more frequency...working on my cars, fixing computers, or things like that.
I can understand what she's feeling, even a little bit of why, but how do I make her understand it's not something to toss the marriage over? I'm BETTER. Even if I do get angry, I know from now on the worst that's going to happen is maybe a shouted, "Oh FUCK!" and then me walking away, or laughing it off, or something.
It seems only time, time spent by her observing me, will ever convince her of that and that's something that's not going to happen if things continue the way they are going...
I'm very sad and depressed about this. Yet, I even hesitate to say that, because maybe I'm "controlling and manipulating" all of you reading this. I know that's what our good friend Murphy would say.
Like I said - it's a Catch-22. Circular argument. Is there a way out I don't see?
posted by Fensty at 8:27 AM
8 Comments:
BH,
I really think your wife is making excuses for her actions. She feels like she needs to blame you for things so she can feel her affiar is right. She knows deep down she is wrong. My ex did the same to me. If your on meds and going to counsoling for your anger and other issues, don't worry about things. You have handled your self very well, everyone has bursts of anger, I know I do. Leaving the situation IS the right thing to do. Again I really feel she is trying to make you at fault so she doesn't feel guilty about her affiar. Just my thaoughts.
I've considered that, and there is definitely SOME truth in that.
But, you have to trust me on this, I do really believe she does fear me. She really does.
She shouldn't, it's crazy, it's irrational...but it IS how she feels...I just have to figure out how to break through that without making it look like an act. Seems impossible.
I appreciate your comments, thanks! :)
She may have some fear, but it is probably more a fear of people, mostly you, seeing who she really is.
It's amazing how many excuses someone in the throes of an affair can come up. I did it.
I believe she does fear, but it's more than likely a fear of what is going to happen as a result of her affair. There are always, always consequences to our actions, and with an affair there are usually no good consequences.
But what she is doing is trying to shift the blame onto you by saying she fears you. She is refusing to see that it is her own choosing to do this. We all have choices, and sometimes we make bad choices, and then we say, "Well, I did it because...." It doesn't work that way, I had an affair because I chose to, not because my husband was mean, or ignored me, or I was screwed up in the head. I chose to, just as your wife is choosing to.
She says she can't stop the affair, she can, but she must choose to. She can choose to save your marriage, she can choose to go on with you.
I was in a tight hold of fear when I was having an affair. I was afraid of the deciet, the sneaking around, the consequences if I should get caught, fear of the future, but mostly fear of myself. Fear that I was a "bad" person. I feared that I was unlovable, that my husband could never forgive me, that I could never forgive myself. That even God couldn't or wouldn't forgive me.
These are the things a person in an affair fears.
And in an odd sort of way, the fear feeds the thrill of it. It feeds the element of danger in an affair. It pushes us further out on the limb, until we fall.
I fell, I broke down. What I feared most was myself. I was 98 lbs when I ended my affair, I was sick with the stress of it, I was unable to work, my mind was not healthy at the time, my very soul was sick with guilt and remorse. I have never cried so much in my life, even more so than when my mother passed away. I would sit on my kitchen floor and cry till I shook with it, cried till I couldn't breathe, cried till I was sick.
I never ever want to experience that again.
signed,
Learned the Hard Way in PA
JD, I have to agree with Lisa and Mac on this one. My hubby is a lot like you and yes, I do fear him at times but I would never cheat. So agreeing with Lisa here on this point, you wife may fear you some but she is mostly using that as an excuse for the affair.
Now as for Mac's comments regarding fear, he is also right. I grew up in a home much like his wife where I never saw my parents fight, never heard shouting etc and when my own husband would do it to me, in the beginning, it would shock me and make me think he was very angry. Even to this day, if he is sad etc, I still interpret it as anger and begin bugging him with questions like "Are you upset with me?" because I am so afraid of upsetting him and he will reply that he is not but I usually don't believe him which will cause me to bug him even more about being angry, which in turn, does make him angry. LOL :)
So I guess what I am saying here, is yes, your wife sounds like she does have some real fear and that is probably related to how she was raised. But by the same token, she is using this unfounded fear as an excuse. It's a little of both.
i can't really add too much more than what has been posted already - i mainly wanted to say when you are in the throes of something you should not be in the throes of, the "sins" of another are so much BIGGER than reality would suggest - my goodness, i can say my husband was just the WORST at this or that, when in actuality, certain things are not his forte. for instance, say he's a chef and can create amazing dinners, but can't repair a clogged drain or put a grill together without throwing tools after trying for two hours. it's not that he's horrible at home maintenance, it just isn't his "thing."
BUT HE MAKES FREAKING AMAZING MEALS!! how many men can do that?
but see, when you are with someone else and you say "gee, my husband can't hammer a nail in straight," suddenly you are chatting with bob villa who can do it all and then some...not only that, but can also prepare dinner. wow. dream guy, huh?
dream guy who would go out of his way to make one person look like a total shit and himself look no less than god-like. it's all about perspective.
it's also about INTEGRITY. she's been lying, but she's also being lied to, about you. she is so confused over everything, the lies, the deceptions, she doesn't know which end is up any more. i am sure part of her didn't want you to see that email, especially in light of it being so revolting. or if she did, then it was simply to "ice the cake," as it were, and piss you off enough that you would want to divorce. didn't quite work out that way though, did it?
you are not the beast. there is a beast that has been whispering to her in the dark for a long time and instead of being accountable for the pain she is causing you by her infidelities, she is trying to shift the blame to you and your now "infamous" temper.
poor girl. poor you. hang in there, you are okay (just based on what i've read thus far ;)
hope this made a little sense....
Hello Husband!
I think you should stop this paranoia (when you keep saying "i am not naive")and simply admit that she simply just doesn't love you anymore. It's really sad from your point of view.
When I put myself from her point I don't see anything else than separation possible.
The only option that appears to me is that you do that you agree for amiable separation with 50/50 child care. Like my parents did when I was 4 years old. I saw my dad 1 week and my mom 1 week .. then 1year/1year, then ... 3y/3y ... then I got my own life.
Let me tell you that from my point of view, someone with guns is obviously not only dangerous but why would you have guns?? It must be you like having guns, that's all! This is awful, guns are just made to shoot at people aren't they?
And excuse me but, you look like the cliché of american people. In love with his red sport car, house full of guns, junkfood, tv addict.
Sorry, it is cultural differences.. The more i read and the less i can empathize.
In the beginning of the blog i was on your side. And still now I think being lied to is really like trahison, I hate liers.
But it seems your wife really doesn't consider you anymore so it's really nothing for her to lie to you.
If anyone has yet something to discover on the other one (including her missing you or you realising your best option is to let go because 1 way love is pointless in the end) it shall happen only by you two get separated.
In fact now I'm on noone's side or on both's (same thing), because I think it's better for everyone to split in this case.. I really don't see what lawyers, counsellors, psy and all those american crap can do for you. Stop delegating thinking in those. One just have to think by oneself on one's own situation sometimes.
Sorry to write offending things and stuff but I was very moved by the GUNS and you saying GUNS are nothing just because you have lots since 14 years old.
It's automatic writing here.. I don't think too much but react to a shock, I don't even write good english so you can delete after read the comment if you think it's absolute nonsense :)
Sorry for judging also, i'm not very good either. Like most men.
Hi, Jesus. :)
First off, your comments are fine. You write English a million times better than I write French. See, I -am- an American stereotype - only speak English. :)
I don't mind your views on guns, that's OK - but you have to understand, that's a cultural thing. There is a HUGE culture gap between Europe and America on guns.
Yes, I have them. I even have a permit to carry one - and yes, I'd shoot someone if they were about to kill me, my wife, or my son. It's just how some Americans are.
Ironically, I don't even go hunting - I don't like the mess. I do enjoy target shooting - stationary targets and trap shooting. But not animals.
And I never REALLY think I'd have to shoot a person who was going to kill me - but it's something I'd do if it came down to my life, or my family's, or some other person who was out to harm us.
I don't expect you to understand that but that's OK.
As for all the other "American Crap" I know, sometimes I myself wonder what all the Prozac and psychiatry can really do. But, I have found it helpful at other times in my life (therapy, never been on medication before) and so it can't HURT, is the way I see it.
My wife, if she doesn't love me - of course, it has to end. But her SAYING she doesn't love me while in the middle of a fantasy affair, and saying she doesn't love me after careful consideration and introspection are two different things.
All I want her to do is stop having an affair with a married man, and TRY to work on our marriage for a little while. That's all. I don't want either of us to stay in a "loveless marriage" just for our son. I agree that's not going to work and more harm in the end.
I appreciate your comments, make as many as you want. :)
Hope you see this reply.
JD the BH
My wife has been a cheat. We have been married for 22 years. In the last few years we have been having problems because i never knew she was cheating on me till a friend of mine saw her with the guy in a hotel. She has been rude to me and everything about her has changed all because of a guy whom i dont know. Just early this year she was calling for a divorce accusing me of assault. Then she called and told them I beat her with a belt. Thank God I met this spell lady ''priestess Ifaa" who a friend introduced to me. It was so pain that my family is tearing apart. I would even go to jail but this spell lady consulted the spirits and told me that the guy place a spell on her for her to distroy me and marry him. This hurt me so much and i asked the spell lady to make the spell reverse. I did everything to make sure the spell was done and on few days later the spell started manifesting because we were back together and we were happy just like the day we got married the reverse spell this spell lady did made the guy go far and never come close because he is a demon. She could not work or support herself that's why she was acting that way. This spell lady is great, she has rescued my family. i met the spell lady though her email ID
priestessifaa@yahoo.com. meet her and get your solved.
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