The Latest - She Hasn't Changed Her Mind
Well, I know what happened now, mostly.
Seems on Friday she broke off the affair. She said it wouldn't be fair to influence him, or herself. Good.
She seemed to make it sound as she told me about it, that he might've said he was getting a divorce for her, to be with her, or something like that. And she didn't want that.
Somehow I also know she got the feeling she couldn't believe that his wife really knew anything. I casually mentioned that maybe she should call his wife, and that I had some people tell me I should. Just to see what she'd say. She said flat out, "If you do that, you'll make this so much worse, it just proves you'll do anything to get what you want, and it's not fair to do that to his wife and him, they need to make their own decisions."
I'm not saying that changed my mind about wanting to call his wife, but it's food for thought and at least I know how EL would feel about it.
She said she's not really planning on trying to resume the affair but was honest enough to admit she didn't know.
But, and here's the part that makes this no better - she said it didn't matter, she didn't change her mind about the divorce and she still wanted it.
She also said, no surprise, she wants her own lawyer so she can make sure The Boy gets what he deserves. I knew that was coming. I still said I wouldn't fight anything that was at least 50/50 equal time joint custody. And that's true, I won't. If she tries for more than that, though, I told her it would get ugly and expensive and there was no point, and she claimed to agree. She keeps saying "but you make more than I do" but I explained, joint custody means child support is cut in half right from the get-go. We'll see. I just don't want to be taken advantage of. I'd rather give willingly what my son needs than have things taken out of my paycheck. At this point the only thing I think I'd concede from the get-go is that I'd keep paying his day care, since her parents watch him half the time anyway, and I could maybe see paying a small percentage of her monthly rent so she could have a 2 bedroom apartment. That's it. Otherwise since we'd both be buying him clothes, food, doctor visits, whatever while he was with the custodial parent, why should she just get "free money" every month from me? I dunno, the courts and lawyers will explain it I guess.
Anyway, I still have some optimism. The ability of the human mind to lie to itself is nothing short of astounding.
She was finally getting angry. She finally admitted she'd built up this incredible wall of anger, resentment, etc. and that she was breaking it down. I kept saying, see, once that's gone how can we possibly be sure what's on the other side? That's why I want to try.
She continues to resent any attempts at me trying to do that, though. She continually says I'm "coercing" her into trying to save the marriage just to get what I want, but she says she knows she'll never be happy with me again.
I don't want to believe that, that's where the lying to myself comes in.
She said she'll go to counseling to work through the divorce, to make it easier. I admit that was sort of a trick or ploy on my part, just to get her into counseling. Probably a stupid idea, but anytime she gets in front of a therapist for a little while has to be better than not.
I also keep encouraging her to get therapy of her own, she might do that now.
I feel awful. If I talk to her about it, I'm "coercing" her and making myself look like a bigger jerk. But if I do nothing, she assumes I'm OK with it all and/or slipping back to old ways of leaving everything to her.
She actually said that, she said since I wanted to spend all day downstairs cleaning and stuff, it showed that I didn't have consideration for her since I made her watch The Boy all day. I explained - it was just dangerous down here, lots of piles of big heavy things as I moved stuff around to vacuum and to sort it all out, etc. I couldn't watch him and get it done, and it needed to get done. She didn't understand so I had to drop it.
She says she hates every minute being in this house, which I don't take to be a good sign. Also she says she feels no guilt at all over the affair.
Sorry, again, this is a disjointed entry, just a collection of random thoughts about it all, really.
Short version: Nothing's changed about her desire for a divorce, but she's letting some anger out, and she ended the affair on her own. What it all "means" is unknowable.
Seems on Friday she broke off the affair. She said it wouldn't be fair to influence him, or herself. Good.
She seemed to make it sound as she told me about it, that he might've said he was getting a divorce for her, to be with her, or something like that. And she didn't want that.
Somehow I also know she got the feeling she couldn't believe that his wife really knew anything. I casually mentioned that maybe she should call his wife, and that I had some people tell me I should. Just to see what she'd say. She said flat out, "If you do that, you'll make this so much worse, it just proves you'll do anything to get what you want, and it's not fair to do that to his wife and him, they need to make their own decisions."
I'm not saying that changed my mind about wanting to call his wife, but it's food for thought and at least I know how EL would feel about it.
She said she's not really planning on trying to resume the affair but was honest enough to admit she didn't know.
But, and here's the part that makes this no better - she said it didn't matter, she didn't change her mind about the divorce and she still wanted it.
She also said, no surprise, she wants her own lawyer so she can make sure The Boy gets what he deserves. I knew that was coming. I still said I wouldn't fight anything that was at least 50/50 equal time joint custody. And that's true, I won't. If she tries for more than that, though, I told her it would get ugly and expensive and there was no point, and she claimed to agree. She keeps saying "but you make more than I do" but I explained, joint custody means child support is cut in half right from the get-go. We'll see. I just don't want to be taken advantage of. I'd rather give willingly what my son needs than have things taken out of my paycheck. At this point the only thing I think I'd concede from the get-go is that I'd keep paying his day care, since her parents watch him half the time anyway, and I could maybe see paying a small percentage of her monthly rent so she could have a 2 bedroom apartment. That's it. Otherwise since we'd both be buying him clothes, food, doctor visits, whatever while he was with the custodial parent, why should she just get "free money" every month from me? I dunno, the courts and lawyers will explain it I guess.
Anyway, I still have some optimism. The ability of the human mind to lie to itself is nothing short of astounding.
She was finally getting angry. She finally admitted she'd built up this incredible wall of anger, resentment, etc. and that she was breaking it down. I kept saying, see, once that's gone how can we possibly be sure what's on the other side? That's why I want to try.
She continues to resent any attempts at me trying to do that, though. She continually says I'm "coercing" her into trying to save the marriage just to get what I want, but she says she knows she'll never be happy with me again.
I don't want to believe that, that's where the lying to myself comes in.
She said she'll go to counseling to work through the divorce, to make it easier. I admit that was sort of a trick or ploy on my part, just to get her into counseling. Probably a stupid idea, but anytime she gets in front of a therapist for a little while has to be better than not.
I also keep encouraging her to get therapy of her own, she might do that now.
I feel awful. If I talk to her about it, I'm "coercing" her and making myself look like a bigger jerk. But if I do nothing, she assumes I'm OK with it all and/or slipping back to old ways of leaving everything to her.
She actually said that, she said since I wanted to spend all day downstairs cleaning and stuff, it showed that I didn't have consideration for her since I made her watch The Boy all day. I explained - it was just dangerous down here, lots of piles of big heavy things as I moved stuff around to vacuum and to sort it all out, etc. I couldn't watch him and get it done, and it needed to get done. She didn't understand so I had to drop it.
She says she hates every minute being in this house, which I don't take to be a good sign. Also she says she feels no guilt at all over the affair.
Sorry, again, this is a disjointed entry, just a collection of random thoughts about it all, really.
Short version: Nothing's changed about her desire for a divorce, but she's letting some anger out, and she ended the affair on her own. What it all "means" is unknowable.
posted by Fensty at 9:39 AM
10 Comments:
[quote by Wife]
"If you do that, you'll make this so much worse, it just proves you'll do anything to get what you want, and it's not fair to do that to his wife and him, they need to make their own decisions."
[/quote]
*sigh*
i hate to say this dude, but she's manipulating you. she is doing everything in her power to not expose her sin - sorry, but that's the truth. whether she is the dumpee or dumper is of no moment. she had to look up his personal info? and then couldn't find it? the o.m.'s wife has no clue. what probably happened is your wife told him she wanted out of her marriage and now o.m. is freaking, if not just a little bit.
*sigh*
and now she is trying to manipulate you into not doing the right thing. the right thing is to tell this o.m.'s wife wtf has been going on. think of it this way: if she doesn't already know (which she doesn't), this joik is going to go out and find the next woman he can lay his hands on because this one didn't quite work out the way he thought it would. how pathetic. but you can look at it as doing not only the right thing, but the noble thing: you are saving the o.m.'s next victim from the trouble an affair really causes.
it's so freaking messy, isn't it?
it sounds to me that Wife is a little panicky and you say she is at least letting out some of her anger at you - what's she so angry about? the fact you want to work at your marriage? the fact that you want what's right for the Boy? how can she be angry at that? i think, darlin', that she is angry that her o.m. is slipping away and your are the scapegoat.
"coercing" someone to save the marriage. bad choice of words on her part -- listen, i know you want to paint the picture of your being the Bad Husband and her being the Good Wife and that she was literally not at fault through any of your 9-year relationship, but you know what? you cannot shoulder the blame all by yourself. it simply is not the case.
she is bearing some of the burden now and she doesn't like it.
(the lady from pa that has posted - "been there?" is that her name? i can identify with everything she is saying in her postings although my affair didn't get quite as physical - it was exceedingly emotional, but she is right on in what she is saying. just wanted to give her props.
and "hi, mac :)"
p
Well, it can't be to protect him or whatever, 'cuz she dropped him.
She told me what it was, he said he was getting a divorce because of her, so she put the brakes on. She doesn't want to influence anyone's decision.
I don't know. We just had another argument now because I said I was going to leave for awhile, she got all angry again - pissed as I've seen her yet - and said see, you're abandoning your son already.
I said, what are you doing to me, you kept saying you wanted me to leave...
"I wanted you to move out, not to leave the state for a month and not see your son."
God I cannot win. If I don't get away for awhile I really will go crazy, though.
She is letting the anger out but I don't know if that's going to make it any better. She's giving me this "See it can't possibly be amiable now can it?" crap.
GAaaaaaah I just don't know.
But I am not thrilled with you all constantly demanding I call his wife. Once that's done I can't take it back. I guess I should wise up and see I have no hope anyway and just do it...but how do I know I have the right? What if the woman would prefer never to know? Is it right for ME to decide what she finds out about her husband?
And why do it just for "revenge" or to show I can't be manipulated. That's not right...
If you believe she called off the affair, I think you're wrong. Everything was going great, she was happy. Happy until her divorce became a reality. I fully believe HE called it off. That's why she was looking up his info. You don't think she would actually admit to you that HE called it off, do you? Seems to me, his wife doesn't know. Otherwise your wife wouldn't care if you talked to the ex or not. Imagine a spouse cheating and lots of people knew, and nobody said a thing because the cheater didn't want you to. What a shame.
Well, I can't know for sure, but the Email I saw also made it sound like it was her call and not his.
I think he said he was getting a divorce, and he wanted her to move in or something like that, and she said no, and broke it off. I don't really know of course...but it bears out what she's been telling me all along - that in her mind, if she's not seeing him, she's not getting a divorce "because" of him. And same for him - if he gets a divorce and she's not seeing him, she doesn't have to think she broke up his marriage.
I think that's just creative lying to oneself, but as I've been saying all along, if I can lie to myself to this degree, no surprise that other people can, too.
I am still deciding about calling the other woman. I will sooner or later, but if the affair is over, what's the rush...it's still not hopeless.
not thrilled with us all demanding you call the wife. hmmm.
would you want a phone call if your spouse was cheating on you, unbeknownst to you?
you are putting it all out there, seeking response (otherwise, you wouldn't allow for comments). i check in on you every day, like i know you or something; i feel sadness for you because i know you are struggling and are suffering through this.
again, i say: she is manipulating you and isn't the portrait you painted her to be, even in your own mind any more. she is angry, you bet. you say that she is being honest with you -- really? totally honest? 1000% honest?
deception isn't honest. lying, not honest. cheating on one's spouse, no matter how "bad" things are at home? again i say, dishonest.
does the other man's wife need to know another woman has had her (fill in the blank) all over her man? oh, you bet.
truth be told? you figure that one out. there is so much that has been dishonest over the last few weeks for you, i don't know how you can believe what she is saying, even in emails to the o.m. and really, nobody ever wants to be another person's excuse for leaving one's spouse - my God, that would mean *gulp* there'd be a level of accountability and she'd have to step up...
...and out of her dishonesty.
When my wife's first affair was busted up (by getting caught at her workplace), the OG was forced, by circumstances and legal issues, to tell his wife. I had been under the impression that his wife knew all along, but no, I was lied to by my wife. As soon as I knew that she knew, I went over to talk to her, and I apologized for not telling her earlier, but I had been lied to also.
YOU were told, IIRC, that the OG's wife was also cheating, or otherwise knew. So, here's what I would do. I would say: "EL, either you or OG must tell her by [set a date and time] or I will tell her...although you indicated that she already knew, or was cheating herself. I will call her [shortly after the date/time] and ask if she knows, and if she doesn't, I'll tell her."
If she hits you with "it's not fair to do that to his wife and him, they need to make their own decisions" again, simply say, "How can his wife make an intelligent decision unless she has sufficient knowledge of the situation? I sure don't trust HIM to give her sufficient knowledge."
"The OG could very well be screwing lots of women and exposing his wife to deadly diseases. I could not live with myself if I learned that she contracted a disease because of her ignorance about his behavior. It's your choice. Either YOU tell her, or *I* will. There will be no negotiation about this--it's a matter of life and death." [Ignore any claims that he always used rubbers or some such baloney.]
I don't think this action is going to affect the ultimate outcome of this situation. It's clear that she's going to do whatever she wants to do, even if it hurts you or the kid. She's extremely selfish. She really doesn't give a shit about you. She cares only about herself. If she really cared much about you, she wouldn't have cheated to begin with.
I thought that the first affair had gotten it out of my wife's system. If I could have foreseen the future, and knew that my wife would cheat again, I probably would not have been interested in salvaging the marriage back then, but then, as now, I don't have any great alternatives. My wife doesn't think I'm going to change. I don't think she is going to change. And that is that. But, so far, neither one of us has wanted to make the first move to end it. This may change soon.
As for leaving town, I would not do that without getting written acknowledgement from her that you are leaving for a temporary vacation, and that she does not consider that abandonment. Ask a lawyer about it,
first.
And remember, you are NOT alone...although sometimes you may feel that way. This blog has been helpful to me, and I hope that the readers' posts have been helpful to you.
SH
BH,
I'm glad she ended the affair for what ever reason. I'm sorry she still wants out. I have no words of wisdom because I'm in the SAME boat. The trip sounds really nice to clear your head and get some needed time off from Life. I did a short trip during my whole mess with the ex and it helped alot. One person paid some attention to me and it helped me feel like a woman again. After some one cheats on you, your selfesteem goes down the tubes. So it was nice. I told him thanks but no thanks I'm still married. He respected that. It was a turning point for me. I can feel your pain and I wish there was something I could do for you. If you find some answers on how to heal, let me know. Take care and keep your head up.
Lisa in NJ
Sorry, everyone - DON'T think I don't like the advice, the input, the other views!
When I said "not thrilled" I just meant, that advice still doesn't ring true to me in this situation.
I still value it, and appreciate it. Martha, you're right - I put all this stuff out there hoping some people will read it and share ideas or experiences that might help.
So...I'm sorry guys, that's not what I meant. I know you've all been here before me, and there's NOTHING I value more than your wisdom on this stuff.
But at the same time, I'm the one living this one, and I think things are just going to get even worse if I call his wife right now. I'm still waiting to see if SHE'S going to call her. I planted more seeds in that direction today actually.
And, she's still telling me it's over, she doesn't want to try, nothing is going to change her mind...but...at the same time, it seems like she's still thinking. So now I just want to lay low - if she really broke the affair off, now I can afford to play it low key and give her that "space" she keeps demanding, see what happens.
I DO want to drive south and visit my Dad and lie on the beach, though. I have an appointment with another attorney on Thursday and will see how "allowable" that is. According to a website I read with FAQ's on Pennsylvania Divorce, it's not abandonment, but I'll confirm with a lawyer before doing anything stupid, don't worry.
I don't want to give you well meaning advice just to have it backfire in your face. I can only give you examples from my own experiences.
What I meant when I said my husband confronted me, he really confronted me, blasting me with all his hurt and anger. I was in a selfish, self centered place before I saw exactly what I had done to him.
He never gave me a moment to even take a breath, every thing he felt he threw at me and that was the catalyst that broke me.
I'm sorry from the perspective of one who has been there, I think she needs to see exactly what she has done to you. Everything you wrote indicates that she only sees what she wants to see. You say one thing, she views it as manipulating on your part. She is the one who has manipulated and lied to get what she wants, maybe you should point this very obvious fact to her. She is the one who is tearing your family apart.
She says she does not feel guilty for the affair, maybe you need to get good and pissed and give her a reason to feel guilty. Maybe she thinks you just don't care, so show her that you care, get pissed. We, women are odd creatures, and before my husband reacted, I felt like he just didn't really care about what I was doing.
And I'll tell you, my husband raged, he frightened me but at the same time, I saw. I saw his pain and grief. Maybe she needs to see that.
Another thing my husband did was confront the other man, he didn't pound his face in like he wanted too, but he did talk to him, face to face.
This is what I realized, that I had no right to give away what belonged to my husband, not my heart or my body.
She needs to see this from your persepective.
signed,
Learned the hard way in PA.
post jack: hard way in pa? i say amen and amen.
/post jack
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