A REAAAAAALY Long Email I Sent to Someone...
This Email is one I typed a few hours ago, this afternoon. Someone had responded to some of my comments, via Email, and asked a few rhetorical questions, which me being me used as a stepping stone for a 40 page self-evaluation. :)
I asked and got their permission to post it here. I just thought it went a long way towards explaining to myself (and thus, to that person and any of the rest of you who'd want to read it) how I got so far in 4 months, if it's "real" or not, and other things on that subject.
As always opinions are welcome, though, this right here is one long-ass Email. :)
-JD
(The person to whom I sent it might notice this one is a little different. I sent this to RHA, so, I admit, I took out a part where I talked about how I did NOT want to snoop on RHA even though I could - and detailed two ways I could if I wanted to. Just 'cuz, well, that mighta been TOO weird to have her read, you know? :) And I modifified and edited a little bit here and there in other places to overall make it more of an opimistic-about-my-RHA-future Email, and how I want to be a better person in general, and hope RHA will stick around to be part of that, but if she doesn't, that it'll be OK with us both, because we have a great communication based relationship already.)
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I wrote this and I thought, damn, I really do sound full of myself, egotistical, downright smug again. Please "call me" on any of these answers that seem to easy or self-delusional. :)
> Thanks for your comments ... but this is what I'd be
> worried about. How long will it take you to start
> snooping on RHA? And how do you see that the
Ah...I ask myself that one constantly. CONSTANTLY. All I can say is...I swore to myself that the snooping I was doing to EL would not define me, and I would fight any feeling to EVER do that in the future. That I would fight it by simply "never letting things get that bad."
It sounds pathetically easy, like I'm not taking it seriously...but...consider: If I remember every day, "Don't let it get that bad" - then how can it?
How can it get to the point where my future "mate" would not want to talk to me about an issue, if every single day I make clear that all I want to do is become a better person at the end of the day?
That communication is key?
That I won't ever be upset at anything that is said, even "goodbye" - but I will be hurt irrevocably by finding out - as always has to happen, snooping or not - that she held something back?
I hope that anyone I meet in the future - well "hope" isn't quite right as I'll be making sure that I look carefully and constantly for this quality before committing - will be mature and adult and simliar to me enough that THEY also will understand that - that talking is better than not talking, no matter the issue. RHA and I are there already. And I hope that'll never change, and I hope that I'll never NEED to commit to anyone else, but if I do, if RHA and I somehow don't "make it" in the end, well, I will make certain that anyone else I involve with will be as real, and open, and willing to discuss everything that's on their mind....
So...snooping shouldn't be necessary.
In a more practical answer - well, it's only been a month, but I've felt zero desire to snoop. None. Nada. Zip. And it's not like I couldn't...I mean she lets me use her laptop and she's usually logged in, but why do I care? We already have 10x the openness and trust in our relationship than I ever had with EL. I just don't even think about it. I've even given up most of the snoopage I've done on EL. The only snooping I still do on EL is almost unavoidable, I'd rather not go into specifics but the fact is I don't have to try, it's almost done FOR me at this point. Someday that'll stop and I won't try to restart it, 'cuz I don't care about that anymore either. I only snoop now 'cuz it's easy and even that sometimes a day or two goes by. I figure it'll eventually be 2-3 days, then 3-4 days, then 5-6 days, etc...and one day I'll realize I haven't even considered it for months.
So as for RHA, well, all I can do is stay self-aware. Obviously, it's pretty damn easy to say all this at the 5 week mark. Will it be so easy at 5 months? 5 years? If I find myself slipping, it'll be sometjhing I will talk to HER, and my therapist about, immediately.
That's all I can do, right?
> patterns that you fell into with EL, which made her
> feel neglected and unwanted, and that she needed
> these things in her life, won't emerge with RHA?
> You yourself said in your blog at one point that EL
> had trouble putting her finger on the the things
> which made her stray, and that the yelling was the
> easiest to pick out, although now you seem to have
> accepted that it was just the yelling and the taking
> for granted.
Because, it is. Because I have seen enough - unfairly, thru snooping, as I freely admit - of her messed up brain to see that really IS what she considered to be "unsolvable problems" in our marriage. She's naive, childish, immature emotionally. You pegged it - she really IS someone who felt every day should be a honeymoon. (RHA and I talked about that very early on in our talks - that we both understand sometimes it's work, that it won't be "butterflies" all the time to use RHA's wording, but that it can be wonderful and a partnership anyway, even when it's NOT perfect.) That's sad. It can't possibly be that way - the bad times are what make the good times rewarding.
Would you believe, she puts in her online personal ads, "The one thing I must have in all relationships is total honesty."
Does that boggle your mind like it does mine? One thing she can NEVER, EVER say is that I lied to her - about ANYTHING. There was only one person in our relationship who lied, snuck around, held things back, and said one thing and did another - and it wasn't me.
Yes, the spying is a form of lying, but I don't think that's what she's referring to, or she'd say "trust" wouldn't she?
She really is demented. I really DO have the luxury of saying, in the main, that "it was her, not me." Smug? Egocentric? I don't THINK so, but then, I wouldn't know if it was, I guess. So what are your thoughts?
My issues I have NEVER denied - losing my temper and throwing things like a 5 year old, is disgusting, childish, immature, and downright pathetic. That's why I don't do it. Screaming at the top of my lungs is stupid and non-constructive in terms of solving ANYTHING. I fixed it.
Taking for granted...I really do feel that was, mainly, the cause of our marriage issues. And I don't mean to treat it lightly.
Obviously, after a few years of acting like an inconsiderate asshole who has no responsibilities around the house except to bring home a paycheck and occasionally mow the lawn....any woman would get fed-the-fuck-up and take off. Anyone would feel unloved, unappreciated, uncared for to the point that they should just bail out.
But any woman who was worth staying married to, worth being with - wouldn't have given up her husband and the father of her son without SOME kind of fight, would she? Just waltz away with the first married guy at work to sweet talk her a little bit, and therefore convince herself nothing was saveable, nothing was worth fighting for - or as I've said, even WAITING AROUND TO SEE if it would get better? So that's another reason it's easy for me to move on - I'm sure people tell you like they do me, "That person didn't deserve you - you deserve so much more. They don't love you and never will again if they treat you that way." I hear that a lot, and at first I didn't believe it, but now I do. Again, it's unfair 'cuz it's the snooping that makes it so clear to me those people are right, but it is what it is.
So anyway, I don't doubt that I really was that bad - but at the same time, how hard is that behavior to "fix" really? Am I taking it too lightly? PLEASE tell me so!!
But I don't think I am taking it lightly. I think that it IS easy to fix that, again, by the simple remedy of saying to myself, every day, "I"m not going to let that happen again."
Self-awareness is the key. Somewhere in my blog, I know I must have written something like this:
"All in all, sad as it is, my marriage could have been saved by the sort of advice that any man would give his son on their wedding day. The simple, trite even, completely un-profound cliche's: Don't go to bed angry. Don't forget the little things - they make the marriage. Flowers for no reason trump flowers for cause. Remember to say how much you appreciate the laundry, the dinner, the diaper change. Don't leave your muddy shoes on the floor. Remember to say she looks good when you notice it - which should be every day."
The little things are what make the big things big. This was all it took.
Again, do I sound self-delusional? Remember - my reading her email and stuff has proven to me THIS was her big issue. Things along the lines of, "He never picked up after himself." She actually admits that to people - she doesn't even bother lying anymore and saying I was abusive.
Do you see what I'm saying? I KNOW it sounds like I'm blaming her for everything - but I'm not.
I'm blaming her for being too immature, or angry, or mental, or choose whatever adjective you want - but too SOMETHING to actually WAIT a few months and see what could have happened.
The sad thing is, she's coming around now. She's starting to realize it, and now, I don't want her back. I can't do that to myself.
Like you - I had been so long in the dark, a dark of my own making, sure, but dark anyway - that when this began all I wanted was to fix it and keep it going.
Now I realize, hell, there's a whole world out here that I'd kept myself away from. I'd have been happy enough staying away when I didn't know it was here...I loved my wife and family and marriage...but now I realize, it wasn't really everything it should have been, and I can have more. So I will.
> honeymoon. I take it she never pulled such
> desperation measures while married to you in order
> to get you to notice her. But there had to have
> been a point where you loved EL, and respected her,
> and had as much trust in her as you do now with RHA.
> My question is, can you pinpoint where that all
> changed in your marriage? And if not, how do you
> know that it won't happen again?
That's what I'm saying - it happened when SHE gave up on the marriage, not me. I was blind and stupid and ignorant and wrapped up in myself. No lies. BUT...when I realized it, and went to her to fix it.....she didn't want to. That may be her perogative, sure, as I've come to accept - that was her choice and I can agree or not but it doesn't matter in the end.
She chose it. So be it. I can't alter that, but I can alter how it makes ME feel. I KNOW I could have, would have, saved my marriage if given the chance. I believe it in my SOUL. Even though now in some hindsight, I'm willing to say - maybe she WAS right a little, maybe we WERE NOT right for each other in the end. Maybe she knows that and she IS doing EXACTLY THE RIGHT THING FOR HER. I would have saved it and stayed with her regardless, even if it wasn't the right person for me to live the rest of my life with, I would have done it happily because it was "right." (and I don't mean stayed in a loveless marriage. I mean, I would have only stayed if we could have found the love and happiness again, but that I suspect I would have found that at the price of "turning off" some possible "self-actualization.")
I don't know, but since I can't change it, I'm going to accept it. I am going to be a better man now, for RHA I hope, if not, for someone else. And for me. It's win-win-win. (Me, my son, and (I hope) RHA)
Do you see what I'm saying? I blame myself AND her. I blame myself for causing big problems, but I blame her for not wanting to work to resolve them. Mainly it was me who had to work and she who had to wait. But she was too wrapped up in her own affair to want to do that, too sure that being "free" was what she wanted. And so....she is.
So the way I know it won't happen again, is by not letting it happen again.
Sounds stupid when I say it, but again - what I have to "prevent from happening" is getting wrapped up in myself, not being self-critical, not communicating with my mate. I can do that pretty easily.
It's not so much I have bad habits or terrible things about myself, as that I let those things I do have about me that are negative get too out of control merely out of laziness.
I've been burned, badly. I have the benefit of these very bad, deep - but not fatal - scars that I can feel in myself, almost see in the mirror, every day to remind me - "don't let it happen again."
Fuck, maybe I should get a tattoo...a tiny little, I dunno, mobius strip or infinity symbol or something, tattooed right on my face...under my eyebrow or hairline or somewhere else it won't be visible but I'll know it's there. And it can literally be my visible reminder that...I don't want this to happen again.
You know what? That's not as stupid as it sounds. I'm actually gonna think of that. How small a tattoo can a tattooist do that I will still see every day when I'm shaving in the mirror to remind me - don't fuck it up again.
But in the main, how easy will it be to not fuck up? To look at that tattoo and say, "Shit, did I tell RHA today how lucky I am she's in my life? Better go do that...right now. The shaving can wait."
She might never figure out why I always tell her how wonderful she is to me in the mornings, but hey, what better a time to say it anyway? :)
I like the eyebrow idea actually. Then I can see it everytime I look at myself in the rearview mirror.
> Did your experiences make you a snooper? Or more
> willing to judge someone's maturity by their age?
I think it was the situation. I've alwyas been a tiny bit snoopy, sure. I'm the kinda guy who has an irresistable urge to look in someone's desk drawers when I'm using their desk, for example. If I'd gone to college, I bet I'd have looked in my roommate's shit when they were home for the weekend.
But in all honesty, I NEVER snooped on my own wife before. Really. Before I felt she was cheating on me, I never so much as looked in her underwear drawer or checked her phone for messages.
I looked in her parent's closet when I was house-sitting them, now I think about it. So I'm a voyeur, sure. I have a fascination with the secrets people keep hidden from others, but mental as that may be...I never had a "trust" problem.
I NEVER do that with someone I actually CARE about, but with strangers...yeah, ok, I admit it, I snoop sometimes. LOL. Never anyting too pathological, like I said, probablty the mentally sickest thing I've ever done was poke thru my inlaw's closets or look in a co-workers desk when I had to share it for awhile. We used to look thru our boss's desk when we worked as kids at a gas station in the 80's but hell, who wouldn't do that? He kept the keys to the soda machine in there. :)
So, when I DID get a trust issue, I was just naturally really fuckin' good at snooping, I guess. I've snooped in ways that impressed even me. I honestly wonder if I missed my calling and should go into private investigation. I'm not kidding. I've talked about that with my therapist.
I know things about the Other Guy that EL doesn't have a clue about. Things about his wife. His other girlfriends. And I never had to leave the comfort of my own home or spend more than 20-30 minutes at a shot in front of the computer, or any money, to find it out.
Sum total of money I spent on my "private investigation" of all this? $7. $5 for a phone number search I later found I could have gotten for free by just using http://www.daplus.us and $2 to pay for an archived news story on our local newspaper website.
Scared of me? I hope not. I've never felt the need to act on any of the info, nor expand it to searching for info on RHA for example, or her ex, or any of EL's other little love interests, etc. Just don't care. RHA will tell me all I need to know about her, this I know. And EL's issues don't concern me anymore. Like I said, the snooping is all "automatic" now. Even the snooping on the OG is automatic though I don't bother with that much anymore at all.
That was a lot of explanation...hope it's not a case of "he doth protest too much." I don't think it is, though - I am naturally very introspective and obviously the last 4 months I've been HYPER-SELF-AWARE. I analyze everything I do 7 ways to Sunday looking for motives, reasons, and making sure it's not something I'm doing for the "wrong" reasons, at least, in the main.
So...I think I was just a snooper from the circumstances. But I'll be monitoring my own behavior quite closely on all this, fear not.
> Or simply someone who will be more mindful of the
> manifestations of his temper? I'm not sure what my
That too. Truly - since this began, I've felt NO NEED to "lose it" the way I used to. And I think I've been under more stress and anger in some of this stuff than I ever had before, and the angriest I've gotten, all I had to do was sit on the couch and laugh at myself for a few minutes.
I'm going to be all right. I know this.
Also - and I haven't blogged about t his yet, I'm trying to finish reading a book I'm reading first - but I've honestly, truly, really gotten to a major "root cause" of my behaviors all my life.
And they're not from depression as I've thought. I'm really sure I've got it, and because I do....it's not going to happen again. In fact I have a new found optimism like nothing I've ever felt before...a highway opened in front of me where I see that even at my ripe old age of 35, I may yet be able to cash in on some of the dreams I had in my youth.
Sound all new-agey and shit? :) Stay tuned, I'll blog on it in a few days.
And I owe it all to the blog, too. I really do. This blog may have saved my life even as it documented the failure of my marriage and family.
> experiences have made out of me, but I'm afraid it's
> someone who's too easy to please, and someone who is
> easily controlled by anger, and someone who is ready
> to accept very little emotional commitment from a
> man, as well as very poor treatment. Granted,
> someone may come along tomorrow who will sweep me
> off my feet and treat me like a queen ... but if
You know, you almost could be describing RHA there. And hopefully, maybe this will give you a little hope for yourself, and me - I see a little of that in her sometimes, just a shadow of it...but whenever I see it, I tell her, "Hey. I'm not that guy. I want you to tell me what you really wanna do tonight. I don't want you to just say, "It's ok if you're gonna be late" when I tell you I have to work late - if it bothers you, I want to hear about it, loud and clear."
Basically, I see that she had someone mess with her head, and for whatever reason - my own guilt, my own shame, or my own resolution never to do that again - I tell her to stand up for herself and not let herself hold back, ever, anything. I want to be the man for her that she deserves and should have had her whole life. I can't change what happened to her but I can help her realize we're not all like that - I've told her straight out, don't LET me be inconsiderate. That's all I ask. I want someone to TELL me when I'm being inconsiderate, because, I don't WANT to be. I mean what's the definition of inconsiderate? Not considering others. I mostly do, but sometimes I forget. I don't want to be nagged, but I want to be told when I step on someone's feelings. If they tell me when I do it in a tiny little way, then it'll never get worse. I'll learn to not be inconsiderate in the tiny things, and it won't spiral out of control like it did with EL.
I love that RHA has decided to trust me, and I won't let her down.
> that all comes crashing down, will my self-esteem be
> even lower than it is now, thinking a WORTHY man
> doesn't even want me? Or will I be more desperate
> to keep him when flaws come out that I didn't see at
> first, because the good is so much better than I've
> ever experienced, even though
> most people would say it's average?
I think I will share this letter with RHA, if you don't mind? Would that be OK? I'd like to know if any of this goes through her mind, and how her and I can work through it if it ever does.
I WANT her to tell me if I'm not right for her, if she wakes up in 2 weeks and realizes this has all been a rebound, because I'm just the first guy to treat her "just basically OK" and she's fallen for that as if it's amazin g...well, if she realizes that, I want her to tell me right away. And it'll be OK. I'll do the same if I think that.
I hope that's not what'll happen, but of course I worry. But worrying is what makes it less likely to happen. Another circular argument eh? :) But truly - if we are not right for each other, we'll admit it to each other - because we've both been through it, and the one thing I have confidence in in our relationship is that we will NOT DO THAT TO EACH OTHER, ever...but so yeah, I worry.
As I do also worry that I'm just trying SO HARD to be perfect myself, to be the greatest boyfriend/mate ever, that maybe I WILL start to "slack off" in the near future, and if I do, I want her to call me on it RIGHT AWAY....I don't want her to suppress it or anything, to think that "ok, he's not what I though, but he's still better than the EX, so I'll deal with it."
No no no no no no NO!
So don't you do it either! :) Don't sell yourself short like that. Just trust YOURSELF not to do that, and the people you are with, will be the right ones, you know what I'm trying to say? Don't settle - speak up if you feel even a HINT that it's not right. If you think the other person is "trying" to be someone for you - well, now you know that's impossible...so you'll not let it happen again, right?
Right. :) Don't get it happen.
> I've said to a guy friend I met online, and maybe I
> mentioned this on my blog or even in a comment on
> yours, but I've been living in the dark for a very
> long time. I'm not sure if a light is a candle or
> the sun because I've lost perspective on what a
> normal relationship is, how I'm supposed to be
> treated, how I'm supposed to treat someone else.
You said it on your blog or mine, 'cuz I recognize it. It's true.
All you can do, I think, is decide you will not settle for any LESS than the sun. And to look at any light you see with the critical eye...to put a few layers of eyeshade on and see if it's still as bright. And if it is...well, you'll have to take a shot.
You might later find out it was just a million-candlepower spotlight that hit you in just the right spot...but....maybe that'd be OK, eh? :)
> Unlike you, I can't simply say, "my spouse is an
> asshole," because I take perhaps more responsibility
> than he does for letting it get like it did (maybe
> because he takes next to none). Until I get that
See, I did take responsibility. A LOT. As you saw in the beginning of my blog. But I soon realized it took two, and that for every failure and terrible thing of mine, there was a time she could have done something, said something, or whatever -- and didn't. That she IS as responsible as me. That the final nail was her refusing to believe that she had ANYTHING to do with it, in the end. She did, you know. Her refusal to do counseling, or therapy of her own, or even WAIT AROUND a little while....shows that in the end, she felt there was nothing she needed or wanted to do to save any of it.
So...why should I hammer myself endlessly in guilt for that? My issues, I know what they are. They will take a LIFETIME of monitoring and watching and self-evaluation to keep at bay...but I can do that, and I will, and so - I'm confident I'll be "fixed." I will be the better person I wanted to be when this happened 4 months ago. She just won't get the benefit of it, and too damn bad.
> So I applaud you for being able to be in this kind
> of relationship, to find all these feelings emerge
> so quickly after EL trashed yours, and especially to
> have the perspective that it is a rebound but may be
> more.
That's all I can do. I won't let myself "not feel" like I'm in love, because societal norms say it's "too soon."
I feel like I'm in love, therefore, by my simple, Romantic with a capital "R" logic - I am. I may not be tomorrow. I may be tomorrow and RHA may not be. But right now...I am, and she is, and so....we'll do what lovers do and pin it all on hopes and dreams and optimism and the foolish confidence love brings. :)
If it blows up in my face, well then, it will. How will that be worse than if I could have had it but said it was "too soon?"
You DO bring a good point, I don't know if you meant it this way, but I assume you did...here:
>But I don't envy you. I would be totally
> distraught if the perfect guy for me came along
> before I was ready to handle him in a normal way
> with my normal healthy pre-marriage attitudes on
> love, life and sex.
OK, that's a lot of food for thought for me right there. Because what you are saying is, what if RHA IS the right person, the magic "one" - but because I met her too soon, and let the relationship go too soon - that it IS doomed to failure...but...had we taken it slower, or met 2 years from now...it would have worked?
Shit. That's just a risk we have to take, I guess. Because, the alternative is to not let it be what it wants to be now...and maybe, NEVER have it.
Again, the Romantic in me says - if we're the One for each other, then it doesn't matter when/where/circumstances of our meeting. We're right, we're one, and we'll make it work if it's meant to work now, or in 2 or 5 or 10 years.
Foolish crazy optimism? Duh. :) That's love. :)
> Anyway, thanks as always sharing...
Bet you didn't expect this long an answer, did ya? I didn't when I started to write it!! But it triggered a lot of good feelings in me, a chance ot write out a lot of things I've been feeling lately, at a time when I had an hour to kill...so....here you are.
(personal end note stuff deleted)
I asked and got their permission to post it here. I just thought it went a long way towards explaining to myself (and thus, to that person and any of the rest of you who'd want to read it) how I got so far in 4 months, if it's "real" or not, and other things on that subject.
As always opinions are welcome, though, this right here is one long-ass Email. :)
-JD
(The person to whom I sent it might notice this one is a little different. I sent this to RHA, so, I admit, I took out a part where I talked about how I did NOT want to snoop on RHA even though I could - and detailed two ways I could if I wanted to. Just 'cuz, well, that mighta been TOO weird to have her read, you know? :) And I modifified and edited a little bit here and there in other places to overall make it more of an opimistic-about-my-RHA-future Email, and how I want to be a better person in general, and hope RHA will stick around to be part of that, but if she doesn't, that it'll be OK with us both, because we have a great communication based relationship already.)
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I wrote this and I thought, damn, I really do sound full of myself, egotistical, downright smug again. Please "call me" on any of these answers that seem to easy or self-delusional. :)
> Thanks for your comments ... but this is what I'd be
> worried about. How long will it take you to start
> snooping on RHA? And how do you see that the
Ah...I ask myself that one constantly. CONSTANTLY. All I can say is...I swore to myself that the snooping I was doing to EL would not define me, and I would fight any feeling to EVER do that in the future. That I would fight it by simply "never letting things get that bad."
It sounds pathetically easy, like I'm not taking it seriously...but...consider: If I remember every day, "Don't let it get that bad" - then how can it?
How can it get to the point where my future "mate" would not want to talk to me about an issue, if every single day I make clear that all I want to do is become a better person at the end of the day?
That communication is key?
That I won't ever be upset at anything that is said, even "goodbye" - but I will be hurt irrevocably by finding out - as always has to happen, snooping or not - that she held something back?
I hope that anyone I meet in the future - well "hope" isn't quite right as I'll be making sure that I look carefully and constantly for this quality before committing - will be mature and adult and simliar to me enough that THEY also will understand that - that talking is better than not talking, no matter the issue. RHA and I are there already. And I hope that'll never change, and I hope that I'll never NEED to commit to anyone else, but if I do, if RHA and I somehow don't "make it" in the end, well, I will make certain that anyone else I involve with will be as real, and open, and willing to discuss everything that's on their mind....
So...snooping shouldn't be necessary.
In a more practical answer - well, it's only been a month, but I've felt zero desire to snoop. None. Nada. Zip. And it's not like I couldn't...I mean she lets me use her laptop and she's usually logged in, but why do I care? We already have 10x the openness and trust in our relationship than I ever had with EL. I just don't even think about it. I've even given up most of the snoopage I've done on EL. The only snooping I still do on EL is almost unavoidable, I'd rather not go into specifics but the fact is I don't have to try, it's almost done FOR me at this point. Someday that'll stop and I won't try to restart it, 'cuz I don't care about that anymore either. I only snoop now 'cuz it's easy and even that sometimes a day or two goes by. I figure it'll eventually be 2-3 days, then 3-4 days, then 5-6 days, etc...and one day I'll realize I haven't even considered it for months.
So as for RHA, well, all I can do is stay self-aware. Obviously, it's pretty damn easy to say all this at the 5 week mark. Will it be so easy at 5 months? 5 years? If I find myself slipping, it'll be sometjhing I will talk to HER, and my therapist about, immediately.
That's all I can do, right?
> patterns that you fell into with EL, which made her
> feel neglected and unwanted, and that she needed
> these things in her life, won't emerge with RHA?
> You yourself said in your blog at one point that EL
> had trouble putting her finger on the the things
> which made her stray, and that the yelling was the
> easiest to pick out, although now you seem to have
> accepted that it was just the yelling and the taking
> for granted.
Because, it is. Because I have seen enough - unfairly, thru snooping, as I freely admit - of her messed up brain to see that really IS what she considered to be "unsolvable problems" in our marriage. She's naive, childish, immature emotionally. You pegged it - she really IS someone who felt every day should be a honeymoon. (RHA and I talked about that very early on in our talks - that we both understand sometimes it's work, that it won't be "butterflies" all the time to use RHA's wording, but that it can be wonderful and a partnership anyway, even when it's NOT perfect.) That's sad. It can't possibly be that way - the bad times are what make the good times rewarding.
Would you believe, she puts in her online personal ads, "The one thing I must have in all relationships is total honesty."
Does that boggle your mind like it does mine? One thing she can NEVER, EVER say is that I lied to her - about ANYTHING. There was only one person in our relationship who lied, snuck around, held things back, and said one thing and did another - and it wasn't me.
Yes, the spying is a form of lying, but I don't think that's what she's referring to, or she'd say "trust" wouldn't she?
She really is demented. I really DO have the luxury of saying, in the main, that "it was her, not me." Smug? Egocentric? I don't THINK so, but then, I wouldn't know if it was, I guess. So what are your thoughts?
My issues I have NEVER denied - losing my temper and throwing things like a 5 year old, is disgusting, childish, immature, and downright pathetic. That's why I don't do it. Screaming at the top of my lungs is stupid and non-constructive in terms of solving ANYTHING. I fixed it.
Taking for granted...I really do feel that was, mainly, the cause of our marriage issues. And I don't mean to treat it lightly.
Obviously, after a few years of acting like an inconsiderate asshole who has no responsibilities around the house except to bring home a paycheck and occasionally mow the lawn....any woman would get fed-the-fuck-up and take off. Anyone would feel unloved, unappreciated, uncared for to the point that they should just bail out.
But any woman who was worth staying married to, worth being with - wouldn't have given up her husband and the father of her son without SOME kind of fight, would she? Just waltz away with the first married guy at work to sweet talk her a little bit, and therefore convince herself nothing was saveable, nothing was worth fighting for - or as I've said, even WAITING AROUND TO SEE if it would get better? So that's another reason it's easy for me to move on - I'm sure people tell you like they do me, "That person didn't deserve you - you deserve so much more. They don't love you and never will again if they treat you that way." I hear that a lot, and at first I didn't believe it, but now I do. Again, it's unfair 'cuz it's the snooping that makes it so clear to me those people are right, but it is what it is.
So anyway, I don't doubt that I really was that bad - but at the same time, how hard is that behavior to "fix" really? Am I taking it too lightly? PLEASE tell me so!!
But I don't think I am taking it lightly. I think that it IS easy to fix that, again, by the simple remedy of saying to myself, every day, "I"m not going to let that happen again."
Self-awareness is the key. Somewhere in my blog, I know I must have written something like this:
"All in all, sad as it is, my marriage could have been saved by the sort of advice that any man would give his son on their wedding day. The simple, trite even, completely un-profound cliche's: Don't go to bed angry. Don't forget the little things - they make the marriage. Flowers for no reason trump flowers for cause. Remember to say how much you appreciate the laundry, the dinner, the diaper change. Don't leave your muddy shoes on the floor. Remember to say she looks good when you notice it - which should be every day."
The little things are what make the big things big. This was all it took.
Again, do I sound self-delusional? Remember - my reading her email and stuff has proven to me THIS was her big issue. Things along the lines of, "He never picked up after himself." She actually admits that to people - she doesn't even bother lying anymore and saying I was abusive.
Do you see what I'm saying? I KNOW it sounds like I'm blaming her for everything - but I'm not.
I'm blaming her for being too immature, or angry, or mental, or choose whatever adjective you want - but too SOMETHING to actually WAIT a few months and see what could have happened.
The sad thing is, she's coming around now. She's starting to realize it, and now, I don't want her back. I can't do that to myself.
Like you - I had been so long in the dark, a dark of my own making, sure, but dark anyway - that when this began all I wanted was to fix it and keep it going.
Now I realize, hell, there's a whole world out here that I'd kept myself away from. I'd have been happy enough staying away when I didn't know it was here...I loved my wife and family and marriage...but now I realize, it wasn't really everything it should have been, and I can have more. So I will.
> honeymoon. I take it she never pulled such
> desperation measures while married to you in order
> to get you to notice her. But there had to have
> been a point where you loved EL, and respected her,
> and had as much trust in her as you do now with RHA.
> My question is, can you pinpoint where that all
> changed in your marriage? And if not, how do you
> know that it won't happen again?
That's what I'm saying - it happened when SHE gave up on the marriage, not me. I was blind and stupid and ignorant and wrapped up in myself. No lies. BUT...when I realized it, and went to her to fix it.....she didn't want to. That may be her perogative, sure, as I've come to accept - that was her choice and I can agree or not but it doesn't matter in the end.
She chose it. So be it. I can't alter that, but I can alter how it makes ME feel. I KNOW I could have, would have, saved my marriage if given the chance. I believe it in my SOUL. Even though now in some hindsight, I'm willing to say - maybe she WAS right a little, maybe we WERE NOT right for each other in the end. Maybe she knows that and she IS doing EXACTLY THE RIGHT THING FOR HER. I would have saved it and stayed with her regardless, even if it wasn't the right person for me to live the rest of my life with, I would have done it happily because it was "right." (and I don't mean stayed in a loveless marriage. I mean, I would have only stayed if we could have found the love and happiness again, but that I suspect I would have found that at the price of "turning off" some possible "self-actualization.")
I don't know, but since I can't change it, I'm going to accept it. I am going to be a better man now, for RHA I hope, if not, for someone else. And for me. It's win-win-win. (Me, my son, and (I hope) RHA)
Do you see what I'm saying? I blame myself AND her. I blame myself for causing big problems, but I blame her for not wanting to work to resolve them. Mainly it was me who had to work and she who had to wait. But she was too wrapped up in her own affair to want to do that, too sure that being "free" was what she wanted. And so....she is.
So the way I know it won't happen again, is by not letting it happen again.
Sounds stupid when I say it, but again - what I have to "prevent from happening" is getting wrapped up in myself, not being self-critical, not communicating with my mate. I can do that pretty easily.
It's not so much I have bad habits or terrible things about myself, as that I let those things I do have about me that are negative get too out of control merely out of laziness.
I've been burned, badly. I have the benefit of these very bad, deep - but not fatal - scars that I can feel in myself, almost see in the mirror, every day to remind me - "don't let it happen again."
Fuck, maybe I should get a tattoo...a tiny little, I dunno, mobius strip or infinity symbol or something, tattooed right on my face...under my eyebrow or hairline or somewhere else it won't be visible but I'll know it's there. And it can literally be my visible reminder that...I don't want this to happen again.
You know what? That's not as stupid as it sounds. I'm actually gonna think of that. How small a tattoo can a tattooist do that I will still see every day when I'm shaving in the mirror to remind me - don't fuck it up again.
But in the main, how easy will it be to not fuck up? To look at that tattoo and say, "Shit, did I tell RHA today how lucky I am she's in my life? Better go do that...right now. The shaving can wait."
She might never figure out why I always tell her how wonderful she is to me in the mornings, but hey, what better a time to say it anyway? :)
I like the eyebrow idea actually. Then I can see it everytime I look at myself in the rearview mirror.
> Did your experiences make you a snooper? Or more
> willing to judge someone's maturity by their age?
I think it was the situation. I've alwyas been a tiny bit snoopy, sure. I'm the kinda guy who has an irresistable urge to look in someone's desk drawers when I'm using their desk, for example. If I'd gone to college, I bet I'd have looked in my roommate's shit when they were home for the weekend.
But in all honesty, I NEVER snooped on my own wife before. Really. Before I felt she was cheating on me, I never so much as looked in her underwear drawer or checked her phone for messages.
I looked in her parent's closet when I was house-sitting them, now I think about it. So I'm a voyeur, sure. I have a fascination with the secrets people keep hidden from others, but mental as that may be...I never had a "trust" problem.
I NEVER do that with someone I actually CARE about, but with strangers...yeah, ok, I admit it, I snoop sometimes. LOL. Never anyting too pathological, like I said, probablty the mentally sickest thing I've ever done was poke thru my inlaw's closets or look in a co-workers desk when I had to share it for awhile. We used to look thru our boss's desk when we worked as kids at a gas station in the 80's but hell, who wouldn't do that? He kept the keys to the soda machine in there. :)
So, when I DID get a trust issue, I was just naturally really fuckin' good at snooping, I guess. I've snooped in ways that impressed even me. I honestly wonder if I missed my calling and should go into private investigation. I'm not kidding. I've talked about that with my therapist.
I know things about the Other Guy that EL doesn't have a clue about. Things about his wife. His other girlfriends. And I never had to leave the comfort of my own home or spend more than 20-30 minutes at a shot in front of the computer, or any money, to find it out.
Sum total of money I spent on my "private investigation" of all this? $7. $5 for a phone number search I later found I could have gotten for free by just using http://www.daplus.us and $2 to pay for an archived news story on our local newspaper website.
Scared of me? I hope not. I've never felt the need to act on any of the info, nor expand it to searching for info on RHA for example, or her ex, or any of EL's other little love interests, etc. Just don't care. RHA will tell me all I need to know about her, this I know. And EL's issues don't concern me anymore. Like I said, the snooping is all "automatic" now. Even the snooping on the OG is automatic though I don't bother with that much anymore at all.
That was a lot of explanation...hope it's not a case of "he doth protest too much." I don't think it is, though - I am naturally very introspective and obviously the last 4 months I've been HYPER-SELF-AWARE. I analyze everything I do 7 ways to Sunday looking for motives, reasons, and making sure it's not something I'm doing for the "wrong" reasons, at least, in the main.
So...I think I was just a snooper from the circumstances. But I'll be monitoring my own behavior quite closely on all this, fear not.
> Or simply someone who will be more mindful of the
> manifestations of his temper? I'm not sure what my
That too. Truly - since this began, I've felt NO NEED to "lose it" the way I used to. And I think I've been under more stress and anger in some of this stuff than I ever had before, and the angriest I've gotten, all I had to do was sit on the couch and laugh at myself for a few minutes.
I'm going to be all right. I know this.
Also - and I haven't blogged about t his yet, I'm trying to finish reading a book I'm reading first - but I've honestly, truly, really gotten to a major "root cause" of my behaviors all my life.
And they're not from depression as I've thought. I'm really sure I've got it, and because I do....it's not going to happen again. In fact I have a new found optimism like nothing I've ever felt before...a highway opened in front of me where I see that even at my ripe old age of 35, I may yet be able to cash in on some of the dreams I had in my youth.
Sound all new-agey and shit? :) Stay tuned, I'll blog on it in a few days.
And I owe it all to the blog, too. I really do. This blog may have saved my life even as it documented the failure of my marriage and family.
> experiences have made out of me, but I'm afraid it's
> someone who's too easy to please, and someone who is
> easily controlled by anger, and someone who is ready
> to accept very little emotional commitment from a
> man, as well as very poor treatment. Granted,
> someone may come along tomorrow who will sweep me
> off my feet and treat me like a queen ... but if
You know, you almost could be describing RHA there. And hopefully, maybe this will give you a little hope for yourself, and me - I see a little of that in her sometimes, just a shadow of it...but whenever I see it, I tell her, "Hey. I'm not that guy. I want you to tell me what you really wanna do tonight. I don't want you to just say, "It's ok if you're gonna be late" when I tell you I have to work late - if it bothers you, I want to hear about it, loud and clear."
Basically, I see that she had someone mess with her head, and for whatever reason - my own guilt, my own shame, or my own resolution never to do that again - I tell her to stand up for herself and not let herself hold back, ever, anything. I want to be the man for her that she deserves and should have had her whole life. I can't change what happened to her but I can help her realize we're not all like that - I've told her straight out, don't LET me be inconsiderate. That's all I ask. I want someone to TELL me when I'm being inconsiderate, because, I don't WANT to be. I mean what's the definition of inconsiderate? Not considering others. I mostly do, but sometimes I forget. I don't want to be nagged, but I want to be told when I step on someone's feelings. If they tell me when I do it in a tiny little way, then it'll never get worse. I'll learn to not be inconsiderate in the tiny things, and it won't spiral out of control like it did with EL.
I love that RHA has decided to trust me, and I won't let her down.
> that all comes crashing down, will my self-esteem be
> even lower than it is now, thinking a WORTHY man
> doesn't even want me? Or will I be more desperate
> to keep him when flaws come out that I didn't see at
> first, because the good is so much better than I've
> ever experienced, even though
> most people would say it's average?
I think I will share this letter with RHA, if you don't mind? Would that be OK? I'd like to know if any of this goes through her mind, and how her and I can work through it if it ever does.
I WANT her to tell me if I'm not right for her, if she wakes up in 2 weeks and realizes this has all been a rebound, because I'm just the first guy to treat her "just basically OK" and she's fallen for that as if it's amazin g...well, if she realizes that, I want her to tell me right away. And it'll be OK. I'll do the same if I think that.
I hope that's not what'll happen, but of course I worry. But worrying is what makes it less likely to happen. Another circular argument eh? :) But truly - if we are not right for each other, we'll admit it to each other - because we've both been through it, and the one thing I have confidence in in our relationship is that we will NOT DO THAT TO EACH OTHER, ever...but so yeah, I worry.
As I do also worry that I'm just trying SO HARD to be perfect myself, to be the greatest boyfriend/mate ever, that maybe I WILL start to "slack off" in the near future, and if I do, I want her to call me on it RIGHT AWAY....I don't want her to suppress it or anything, to think that "ok, he's not what I though, but he's still better than the EX, so I'll deal with it."
No no no no no no NO!
So don't you do it either! :) Don't sell yourself short like that. Just trust YOURSELF not to do that, and the people you are with, will be the right ones, you know what I'm trying to say? Don't settle - speak up if you feel even a HINT that it's not right. If you think the other person is "trying" to be someone for you - well, now you know that's impossible...so you'll not let it happen again, right?
Right. :) Don't get it happen.
> I've said to a guy friend I met online, and maybe I
> mentioned this on my blog or even in a comment on
> yours, but I've been living in the dark for a very
> long time. I'm not sure if a light is a candle or
> the sun because I've lost perspective on what a
> normal relationship is, how I'm supposed to be
> treated, how I'm supposed to treat someone else.
You said it on your blog or mine, 'cuz I recognize it. It's true.
All you can do, I think, is decide you will not settle for any LESS than the sun. And to look at any light you see with the critical eye...to put a few layers of eyeshade on and see if it's still as bright. And if it is...well, you'll have to take a shot.
You might later find out it was just a million-candlepower spotlight that hit you in just the right spot...but....maybe that'd be OK, eh? :)
> Unlike you, I can't simply say, "my spouse is an
> asshole," because I take perhaps more responsibility
> than he does for letting it get like it did (maybe
> because he takes next to none). Until I get that
See, I did take responsibility. A LOT. As you saw in the beginning of my blog. But I soon realized it took two, and that for every failure and terrible thing of mine, there was a time she could have done something, said something, or whatever -- and didn't. That she IS as responsible as me. That the final nail was her refusing to believe that she had ANYTHING to do with it, in the end. She did, you know. Her refusal to do counseling, or therapy of her own, or even WAIT AROUND a little while....shows that in the end, she felt there was nothing she needed or wanted to do to save any of it.
So...why should I hammer myself endlessly in guilt for that? My issues, I know what they are. They will take a LIFETIME of monitoring and watching and self-evaluation to keep at bay...but I can do that, and I will, and so - I'm confident I'll be "fixed." I will be the better person I wanted to be when this happened 4 months ago. She just won't get the benefit of it, and too damn bad.
> So I applaud you for being able to be in this kind
> of relationship, to find all these feelings emerge
> so quickly after EL trashed yours, and especially to
> have the perspective that it is a rebound but may be
> more.
That's all I can do. I won't let myself "not feel" like I'm in love, because societal norms say it's "too soon."
I feel like I'm in love, therefore, by my simple, Romantic with a capital "R" logic - I am. I may not be tomorrow. I may be tomorrow and RHA may not be. But right now...I am, and she is, and so....we'll do what lovers do and pin it all on hopes and dreams and optimism and the foolish confidence love brings. :)
If it blows up in my face, well then, it will. How will that be worse than if I could have had it but said it was "too soon?"
You DO bring a good point, I don't know if you meant it this way, but I assume you did...here:
>But I don't envy you. I would be totally
> distraught if the perfect guy for me came along
> before I was ready to handle him in a normal way
> with my normal healthy pre-marriage attitudes on
> love, life and sex.
OK, that's a lot of food for thought for me right there. Because what you are saying is, what if RHA IS the right person, the magic "one" - but because I met her too soon, and let the relationship go too soon - that it IS doomed to failure...but...had we taken it slower, or met 2 years from now...it would have worked?
Shit. That's just a risk we have to take, I guess. Because, the alternative is to not let it be what it wants to be now...and maybe, NEVER have it.
Again, the Romantic in me says - if we're the One for each other, then it doesn't matter when/where/circumstances of our meeting. We're right, we're one, and we'll make it work if it's meant to work now, or in 2 or 5 or 10 years.
Foolish crazy optimism? Duh. :) That's love. :)
> Anyway, thanks as always sharing...
Bet you didn't expect this long an answer, did ya? I didn't when I started to write it!! But it triggered a lot of good feelings in me, a chance ot write out a lot of things I've been feeling lately, at a time when I had an hour to kill...so....here you are.
(personal end note stuff deleted)
posted by Fensty at 1:23 AM
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