Oh FUCK FUCK FUCK...
Did I say my worst nightmare came true last week when the OG dumped her ass?
Clearly, I had no idea how bad things could get...
A bit of Email from this morning, edited of course to protect the guilty, and the also guilty.
What the HELL do I do now?
"Irony is just tragedy with a sense of timing."
========================
From: EL
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:04 AM
To: JD
Subject: RE:
The first one
-----Original Message-----
From: JD
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:54 AM
To: EL
Subject: RE:
Look, not to be obtuse, but "everything" what? The affair? The divorce? The lies? The telling your family I'm an abuser? The two months of living, breathing, painful death? The wreck of my mind, career, and family?
Or, just, sorry in general, that our marriage didn't work out in the long run?
It's never too late to say you're sorry, but it is too late for it to make any difference. That's what really sucks. I'm sorry too, for that and a lot of other things.
________________________________
From: EL
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:44 AM
To: JD
Subject: RE:
for everything, it's not too late to say that
-----Original Message-----
From: JD
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:44 AM
To: EL
Subject: RE:
For what?
-JD
________________________________
From: EL
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 8:17 AM
To: JD
Subject: RE:
Hey, I just want to say "I'm sorry"
Clearly, I had no idea how bad things could get...
A bit of Email from this morning, edited of course to protect the guilty, and the also guilty.
What the HELL do I do now?
"Irony is just tragedy with a sense of timing."
========================
From: EL
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:04 AM
To: JD
Subject: RE:
The first one
-----Original Message-----
From: JD
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:54 AM
To: EL
Subject: RE:
Look, not to be obtuse, but "everything" what? The affair? The divorce? The lies? The telling your family I'm an abuser? The two months of living, breathing, painful death? The wreck of my mind, career, and family?
Or, just, sorry in general, that our marriage didn't work out in the long run?
It's never too late to say you're sorry, but it is too late for it to make any difference. That's what really sucks. I'm sorry too, for that and a lot of other things.
________________________________
From: EL
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:44 AM
To: JD
Subject: RE:
for everything, it's not too late to say that
-----Original Message-----
From: JD
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:44 AM
To: EL
Subject: RE:
For what?
-JD
________________________________
From: EL
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 8:17 AM
To: JD
Subject: RE:
Hey, I just want to say "I'm sorry"
posted by Fensty at 11:23 AM
23 Comments:
What do you do now? What do you want to do? Am I way off base, or do I detect an underlying yearning for reconciliation despite it all? Honest answer, yes or no? Not saying that you'd have to act on it if you did.
-- Barbara
Dear GOD no. Where did you detect that?! Yikes.
Don't scare me that maybe on some weird subconcious level I want that.
I truly, deeply, honestly, look in my soul and.....I don't want it.
I thank myself every day I spied and snuck around and can see this for exactly what it is - she figured out how stupid she's been.
I'm not saying she wants to reconcile anyway. No idea if her apology means that. But since she admitted to being "stupid" and apologizing...well...I'm afraid it's not too far behind.
I just got off the phone with my lawyer, setting up an appointment for later this week to kick things into high gear.
Well, if you're not considering it any level, why is it such a bad thing that she's realized she made a mistake and said sorry? Just a thought.
-- Barbara
Ohh, ok. I see what you mean.
No, I meant, it's my worst nightmare in that...now she has no reason to be "nice" in this divorce. She misses our son, that much is clear from recent actions by her, she's jealous of my improvements, and she realizes how badly she screwed up.
What'll be next is, "I think I changed my mind...I don't want a divorce now. I want to reconcile...and if you don't, I guess I better take those stocks and 401k after all..."
That's my concern.
Yeah, I was lost too ... you said you edited but unless you edited out "I want to get back together" or something major, how is this your worst nightmare?
You've said again and again that EL needs to get help. The first step to getting help is to get out of denial about what you've done and make amends to people. So her apologizing for, I guess, "the affair" is a good thing.
You made it clear that "It's never too late to say you're sorry, but it is too late for it to make any difference." That should be enough of a message, if not, just repeat it.
As far as the stocks and 401K, if she's not entitled to it, then it shouldn't be a problem to deny it to her. If she is entitled to it and hasn't pushed for it, then are you just upset you aren't getting away with something? (My X2B has apparently been spending his 401K in an attempt to keep me away from it when the courts get the issue next year, while I'm living paycheck to paycheck without so much as being able to afford cable TV, so I guess I'm a little sensitive on the subject of financial equity right now.)
Kayten, "entitled" is a sticky issue, eh?
My stock options were mine before we were married. From a job I got before we were married. By law, she gets half though. I don't think that's fair. They "cost" her nothing, she didn't "earn" them.
My 401k the vast majority of it I paid into before we were married. When I was younger, I was putting the max - 20% - of my paycheck in that sucker. I dropped that to 5% when we got married to afford the house payment and stuff.
The house down payment was paid for with more of my stock options. (It was a GOOD year that year - buy price $5, sell price, $180. Wish I'd had more vested!!)
Technically, she's "entitled" to half of it, but I don't feel that way. And she spurned it initially. Said she was not interested in "making a profit on my marriage."
So I'm being blunt - yes, that's my fear. That now that suddenly SHE doesn't want a divorce, she'll change her tune and take me for half of everything.
Which the law may say she's entitled to, but I don't feel is the case.
Also worth mentioning, is she took a PAY CUT last year so she could get this new job where she ended up hooking up with the married guy (I don't imply she went to work there for that reason, of course, just sayin') and I got a big fat raise/promotion by an interesting coincidence, 1 month before she decided she didn't want to be married anymore.
Prior to that, she'd always earned more money than me. Again, was that planned? I don't mean to imply that. But it DOES show, if you ask me, that she's not entitled to any of my earnings. She's clearly demonstrated the ability to earn more than me, or at least, equity.
So yeah, I'm being pissy. She said she didn't want what the law "entitled" her to when SHE wanted out, but now I forsee her taking whatever she can get out of spite.
JD
(Did you notice that your earlier "news roundup" generated ZERO comments, yet this NEW news item ALREADY has several comments?? WE LOVE THIS SHIT!!!!!!! ;-)))))
Well, well.
Why am I NOT surprised by this latest news?
A few random thoughts...Let me be blunt:
Why are women (incl. my formerly cheating wife) so FUCKED UP??????
Why do they go so CRAZY for new DICK???? (It also sounds like you have gone crazy for new young nookie!)
Then, when they realize that that DICK did not equate to LOVE, did not equate to SECURITY, did not equate to PEACE, THEN they start to apologize--long after they've complete destroyed the trust they shared.
I'm trying to put myself in your situation. I'm trying to imagine myself swept off my feet by a younger woman while my wife was in her affair.
I'm trying to imagine myself being treated like SHIT by her (I was!).
I'm trying to imagine her moving out (it almost happened).
And I'm trying to imagine my wife of 20 years--the mother of my children--being DUMPED like a piece of trash by some adulterous schmuck.
My conclusion:
"Oh FUCK FUCK FUCK..."
Yes, I would feel (at least somewhat) sorry for her.
Let me think out loud:
1. Don't treat her like a piece of shit, even though she treated you like one.
2. Encourage her to "find herself", to give it time living on her own.
3. Encourage her to get some serious personal counseling, and to get herself tested for STDs.
4. Make sure she knows that the hurt she feels now is a lot less than the hurt she inflicted on you for months.
5. Tell her that you intend to continue your relationship with RHA, but that you will not treat her like trash (like OG obviously did), i.e., you will be her friend and you will be there for her in emergencies/illness.
BE A CLASS ACT!
6. As for the money issues, who knows how she feels about that? She may not give a damn about the 401k, etc. (Isn't the 401k for retirement only anyway? Isn't there a penalty if it's cashed in??) Assure her that you will not be a tightwad when it comes to providing for the Boy.
7. Are you sure she doesn't have any underlying disorders or addictions? If she does, then get her specific help with those specific problems.
8. I worry that, even if the RHA thing falls apart, and EL cleans up her act, and you reconcile (I know you say you don't want to, and I can understand that, but things COULD change if RHA fades away), not only will you never have a sufficient amount of trust, but something will trigger her to try something again eventually.
Why am I now thinking that EL is envisioning a threesome with you and RHA?
Sorry for those scattered thoughts. I can't wait to read others' comments. I'm sure you'll get plenty.
(and stop invoking God...you lose your credibility with me!)
SH
Okay JD,
Voice of reason here:
my 2 cents.. just because she's apologizing doesn't mean anything.
She's sorry she cheated on you... that's good. Maybe that's all she means. And yes, maybe that's NOT all she means.
But you know what? There's no better way of ensuring that she's going to react badly then for you to go on the defensive. Chill out, sit back, and don't make any rash moves until you know what she's up to.
And not to sound too much like a lawyer here, but if you wanted to protect those assets that you put so much into, why didn't you sign a marriage contract back in the day? By not signing that, you've essentially conceded that she's entitled, whether she cashes in on that or not. You had a way to prevent all this, but didn't take advantage of it, so its kind of unfair for her to get the bums rap for taking something that legally she's allowed... dontcha think?
If I think up a solution I'll email you though ;)
SH:
Can I be equally blunt?
"Why are women (incl. my formerly cheating wife) so FUCKED UP??????"
and
"I can't understand what gets into women's heads. I think it all begins with self-pitying claims of 'emotional abuse...'"
Quotes like these from you have me thinking that you harbor a misogynist streak. From where I stand, it looks quite ugly.
Maybe I'm being oversensative, but I regret to tell you this isn't the first time I've thought it. I'm not asking for an apology or trying to rip you a new one. Your thoughts; your words; your right to express. I just wanted to speak up.
-- Barbara
Barbara, WORD.
SH, I was more than a little offended by your post when I first read it this afternoon and am still offended many hours later.
Things like:"Why do they go so CRAZY for new DICK????"
Um, why do who exactly? Maybe your wife screwed up. EL certainly did. But, guess what, not all women do, and your generalizations are a bit offensive for those of us not "crazy for new dick."
I have been following your comments for the duration as I am a real life buddy of JDs and I feel for the situation you're in. But, please try to keep in mind, your wife screwed you over, not womankind.
RHG
I don't want to hijack JD's blog too badly, but I'll briefly respond to you, Barbara.
First, in both JD's case and mine, it was the WOMEN who committed the adultery, not the men. In both cases, the men were accused of "emotional abuse" or "verbal abuse" or some other kind of BS that men-haters come up with when they can't nail a man for PHYSICAL abuse, and when they don't want to accept the fact that they have thin skins, can't engage in debate, or simply do lots of STUPID or IRRESPONSIBLE things that DESERVE passionate criticism.
If a woman feels "verbally abused" or "emotionally abused" she can simply GIVE IT RIGHT BACK TO THE MAN, or she can MOVE OUT. She should not be given a free pass for AN AFFAIR simply by claiming this kind of so-called "abuse". (and I don't give a crap about what all of these pop psych books say....unless the guy is SCREAMING into the ears of the woman from a few inches away, it's not "abuse" in my book...it's debate, criticism, or just plain venting of feelings)
Please tell me how screwing another guy is going to help the situation. Hell, the other guy doesn't even have to LIVE with the woman and endure her stupid/irresponsible/obsessive behaviors. If he has to live with her, he too will probably turn into a so-called abuser.
I'm sick of this anti-male attitude in this society, even when the females are the ones who are violating the commitments/commandments.
Am I angry about this?
You bet I am.
And I'm proud to be angry about it. GOT IT???
(you probably consider the capitalized comments above "verbal abuse")
Oh, HELL NO!
See, now I am verbally abusing you. Not all women are shrinking violets who will take your shit.
Yeah, your wife cheated. Yeah, she was a bitch. But, you're missing the salient point: NOT ALL WOMEN ARE YOUR WIFE!
And you know, just because your wife cheated on you does not make her a man hater. And just because she doesn't like you berating her (like you just berated Barbara, I might add) doesn't mean she should cheat, but she sure as hell should leave your WOMAN-HATING, angry, fucked up ass.
I feel bad for you dude. I really freaking do. I hope your proud anger makes you happy in the long run, because spouting this crap certainly isn't going to win you any friends.
Wow, SH. You spoke volumes. Remember, no matter how messed up your marriage was, it took two to make it that way -- even if the harm was not divided 50-50. You'll never fix your part of the wrong until you take a cold, hard look at your own shortcomings. You have work to do. Then again, we all do. But how is your rage profiting you really?
-- Barbara
Whoa, whoa, whoa...
SH? You are on your own on this one. Don't go dragging me into this. :)
You're gonna have to hang on your own generalizations. EL made some really stupid choices, and has some pretty fucked up morals, but that doesn't implicate all women or anything.
I DO sorta agree with you on "emotional abuse." WTF. I can agree it exists if in TANDEM with physical or maybe even verbal abuse...but I think anyone who says they were "emotionally abused" when the door was never barred from them...is not taking ownership of their own life.
But otherwise...you're on your own here bro.
First, JD, yes, maybe if you remarry you'll sign a prenup that will protect your pre-marriage assets. Unless you did, you probably have to give it up (not cheerfully, but still ...).
Yeah, I gotta say, when a woman gets dicked over by a guy who can't keep it in his pants, men accuse us of being lesbian man-haters, but this recent rant is okay. You know what? I think I took some emotional abuse, and I moved out, and I'M STILL GETTING CRITICIZED FOR THAT DECISION, even on this very blog. You think it was easy?
JD, you say she took this lower paying job which YOU see as a reason to have met OG (not sure I get that one) while you got a payraise and now YOU are screwed? Um, when I met my X2B, he was in college, I was in the working world, I paid off his debt, married him, managed his money for ten fucking years. And I stayed in the goddamn dead-end job even though I'm smarter than him, even finding him a new job when he lost his, SO THAT I COULD RAISE our child. Be the mommy that everyone said I could be (because god knows his being a daddy who compromised his work hours was emasculating and fucking embarassing). Someone needed to run an office from home for 14 months while he was bonding with a parent as the primary caregiver. Someone needed to do a three-day work week until he was secure enough to be away for five days. Someone needed to leave the office at 2 every day once he was in preschool to pick him up. X2B could never do that, even when I begged him, UNTIL I left him, then BINGO! he's there right on time every Thursday and Friday like clockwork! Meanwhile, I am running a major office that I can't take a vacation from without my cell phone and laptop, and turning down job offers, for less than a freaking truck driver makes. Why? Because that's what mommies do. So yes, my X2B is bitter that he's going to have to share a little of his salary and 401K with me, but it's all because of me that he has any of that, including the fucking job that keeps the clothes on his back.
I'm sorry but you know what? When I read studies about how a stay-at-home mom should equate her salary to $70K/year, and I don't get paid much more than half that for doing it all (including being a SAHM during the summers), for no possibility of job advancement and the threat of losing my 14-year-position if anyone over my direct supervisor learns of my true schedule and giving up every fucking weekend during the wintertime, including working on Christmas Day, yes, I get a little bitter that I don't deserve at least $100/month or something from X2B's salary to support the child I have primary custody of, or something so I can have savings if the truck he makes me still pay on breaks down, or maybe even a share of the house that we lived in. Instead, he sticks me with two-thirds of the credit card debt, kept the truck that's paid off but he doesn't use, keeps using the joint account even after I try to close it, and will try to make me pay the penalty on his cashing out his 401K so that he can buy himself a new computer and some other nice toys. And if I dare to say anything? "That's what you get for moving out."
I feel like I should be sorry for this rant, but at the same time, everything I read here tonight indicates that women have it easy and we're all just whores for big dicks or big wallets and making up stories of emotional abuse. Well I can tell you that being a poor single woman who is terrorized by nightmares of never being able to get away from her husband and feel safe, while living on the edge of poverty is not the picnic you people have made it out to be.
The folly here is trying to equate two different situations. Our situations are different. You're perceptions cloud your vision of me as much as mine do my vision of yours.
I don't doubt you did what you had to do. I give you the benefit of the doubt that you tried and failed to save your marriage, and took the last resort of moving out/divorcing when all else failed.
I do doubt that EL had smarter choices she could have made. I'll say it slow - SHE. NEVER. GAVE. THE. MARRIAGE. A. SINGLE. CHANCE.
None. She wanted to have an affair, she made some excuses and she bailed. And now that it's fallen flat on her, she wants to come back.
You have respect for that? I don't. You consider her a kindred spirit of yours? I thought you had more self-respect than to lump yourself in with the likes of her.
So, anyway, you know what? I feel I DO have every right to say to her, "Hey, that's what you get for moving out."
She chose this path, not me. Why should I pay for HER mistakes?
She doesn't pay for mine.
I should pay for my SON. CHILD SUPPORT, certainly. But not one fucking dime for her. You're damn right I'm bitter.
Pre-nup? Yeah, well, hindsight is 20/20. IF someone had told me she'd turn out to be an unfaithful liar, sure, I'd have done the pre-nup.
This is why I don't let people on the blog know me personally. I was "this close" to emailing you, Kayten, from my "real" address, out of cameraderi and the simple fact is that it's easier for me that way. I'm now glad I didn't. I'm very worried now you'd be one of these people who'd love to call EL up and say, "That fucker has been spying on you! WHY on EARTH are you settling for a couple grand of his 401k when you could have half of everything even though YOU were the one who just up and decided to piss away the marriage without a second thought or a moment's work. TAKE IT! TAKE IT! TAKE IT! You're 'entitled' to it, just because! It's HIS fault for trusting you and not wanting a prenup, so take him to the bank!"
She doesn't deserve half of what I have worked my ass off for. My pre-owned stocks put the downpayment on the house, and 90% of the equity we took out when we refinanced went to pay her stupid department store and credit card debts. $20k pissed away.
Yeah, I guess you've got me riled up now too.
So...please don't accuse me of generalizing, 'cuz I'm not. I'm talking about me and EL here, not you and your Ex.
I'm gonna save commenting on "emotional abuse" when I'm less angry and apt to say something I'll regret in the cold light of morning.
For some reason (perhaps my failure to click "publish" after clicking "preview"), my response to RHG never appeared. Here it is:
RHG,
If you can show me where I said "all women", I will gladly apologize and stand corrected.
SH
El gave the marriage a chance...for years. And in turn you killed it over a couple of years.
And then suddenly when YOU wake up and decide you don't want it dead, she's just supposed to miraculously revive it just cause you decide?
When something takes a long time to die, it can't be revived in any less time.
Will fear possibly drive her to come back? Yes. It's also a reason so many women stay in an unhapy marriage. Many will be the primary care giver, and alone, struggling on the edge of poverty to provide for their children.
GGBP, you made all the good points, I won't repeat them. Character is the issue.
Kayten - in the cold light of morning, I won't take any of that bad. Sorry, it's my feelings and I'm as entitled to 'em as anyone. My situation is nothing like yours, so therefore, my opinion of my situation doesn't invalidate or challenge your opinion of yours - both in both cases, we're too colored by our own experience to see the other's point of view clearly.
SH - you did say, "What is it about women..." and "Why are women so..." The absence of a modifier such as "some women" or "these women" or "our wives" or whatever pretty much makes it a generalization. I can accept if you didn't mean that, but that's what people are seeing and "on paper" it's valid. :)
All - the reason I consider this "my worst nightmare" I guess I never made clear. Put simply: EL and I had decided to make this a quick, clean, hassle-free no-arguments no-asset-grabbing divorce. Now with her change of heart, I'm afraid me and The Boy are about to take it up the ass, financially and in the custody sense. That's it. YES, it's materialistic and selfish and possibly even "wrong" to feel that way, but I do.
GGBP and others re: emotional abuse: I think GGBP put her finger on it with the "feelings" modifier - if someone is really twisting your brain all around and messing with your feelings (duh, I guess I should have figured THAT definition of "emotional" out, eh? I can be ignorant!) and manipulating into thinking YOU are the f'ed up person because of how you feel, and rollercoastering your feelings, etc....that could be a form of abuse.
However I cannot shake my feeling that, it's not something I think is fair to equate as "abuse" with beating the shit out of someone, or screaming insults at them and making them feel worthless and useless.
I know a LOT of strong women role models. Women who wouldn't take that shit for more than a minute. They'd give it right back and walk the fuck out. So I struggle with how bad it could really be.
But I accept since I never lived it, I can't know.
I also look at myself and see, can I fit that profile? No. I never used emotions or feelings to try to "twist" things or get my way any more than any reasonable person would from time to time.
(As in, who hasn't said, "I really want to (do this) and it's going to make me feel pretty bad if we don't get to, can't you just (go here or do that) and see if you might enjoy it?")
Also I'll say that in the heat of the most terrible time of my life, the 2 months or so after the infamous Sunday night discussion, sure, I probably did more emotional manipulating, as can clearly be seen in the early blog entries, "What do you mean, you are going to piss away our marriage for some guy you've known 2 weeks? ARe you crazy? Did you ever love me or has it all been a lie? How can you doom The Boy to a life of divorced parents, are you heartless?"
But I'm sorry, I choose to say that "doesn't count" - consider it an "acute snydrome" at that point and not a chronic case.
OK. I think that kinda "closes" my comments, clarifications, and feelings on this post. SH, good observation, the day to day shit gets no comments but throw a little emotion into the mix and suddenly it's a commentary slugfest! :)
Yeah people are weird JD.
I got 37 comments on a post about a groundhog.
Go Figure.
Apparently some things strike a nerve with people while other things get read, but don't stir the pot.
As for emotional abuse, I think it's probably a hard thing for anyone who hasn't been in the situation to understand. I consider myself a strong woman, who puts up with no shit from no one, but I found myself in a relationship where I was getting manipulated and probably mildly emotionally abused. And you wonder, why didn't I get up, kick some ass, and walk out? Well eventually I did. but at first, it just all happens so gradually. I'd say there's a fine line between manipulation and emotional abuse, in that not ALL manipulation is emotional abuse but ALL emotional abuse is manipulation in one form or another.
In reality, it all comes down to a line drawing exercise, and a subjective point of view thing. If EL feels a certain way, that's how she feels. Whether or not she shouldn't have put up with it, or whether or not subjectively YOU think it's that bad is really not relevant.
If she feels it, she feels it. I can definitely see how it would feel like a cheap cop out excuse... how could it not? It's not something you can see, or touch or feel.
Is it based on her own mental health issues? Yes. Emotional abuse is always based on that, I would venture to say. It's all a self-worth thing, truly. I'd have to say that NOBODY can make you feel that you have no worth as a human being unless you have some self esteem issues... but who among us doesn't have some of those underlying issues? And the stronger you feel love for the person the easier it probably is for you to realistically believe that you're worthless, when they tell you that you are.
Anyway, in answer to what is probably a question best addressed in the second post: To some extent all of us are emotional abusers, with no control over the impact it has on the person taking the emotional abuse. The real question lies on how hard do we try to limit that impact by making our significant other feel exactly the opposite? How often do we hold our tongues instead of lashing out? How does all this make the other person feel?
I think you kind of just have to accept that EL feels that you did abuse her, no matter how much you've changed now. Maybe you did, maybe you didn't... but its all subjective in her mind and you saying "No I didn't" is pretty shitty, cause think about how you feel when people tell you how to feel? If she doesn't REALLY feel that way, then yes, she's a bitch and an emotional abuser... but it's all a question of semantics.
SH,
JD hit it on the head. When you don't qualify your statements with "some" or "certain", it sounds like you are condemning women in general.
If you don't believe me and think I am being overly sensitive, subsitute the name of any ethnic or sexual-orientation minority and go scream it on a major city street corner. I'll be sure to send flowers to the ICU ward where you'll be recovering...
-RHG
Okay, RHG, if you want to get picky....
I said:
"Why are women (incl. my formerly cheating wife) so FUCKED UP??????"
If I had meant or implied ALL women, it would not have been necessary to say "(incl. my formerly cheating wife)".
But for the purposes of my future posts on this blog...
LET IT BE KNOWN TO "ALL" WHO READ THIS BLOG THAT S.H. DOES NOT MEAN "ALL" UNLESS HE SAYS "ALL".
Have a nice day, y'all! ;-)
SH
This is a really messed up situation and it should be a warning for any man to even think about entering marriage in today's society. I went through the same situation and believe me...I definately learned my lesson and would never think of making a stupid mistake of marrying again. Now my health is better, my financial situation is much much better, and I actually enjoy life for the first time in several years. The responses I see in this blog from women are total crap, believe me on this, women are the last people you want to take advice from on relationships because it will only benefit them.
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