Well, it's official...
I've noticed I've been just sort of generally depressed a bit more than usual lately. Not like horribly depressed, and not all anxiety ridden as before...just generally "down" about things.
I think what it is, is that it's finally sinking in...it's for real. She's not going to "come to her senses" as I've been thinking for awhile.
She is just so angry and so set on divorce she sees nothing else, wants nothing else. I still think she's not really thinking it through, but what I think doesn't matter, she's doing it.
So tonight it's official, she filed the papers, I'll get 'em next week. Maybe now I can get out of the funk a little bit, that the waiting is over.
She picked the first lawyer she went to see, her mom paid the retainer and the court costs (nice of her, eh?) and the papers are filed. Without alimony pen lite she says, and I believe her on that.
She really isn't taking it seriously, though. I mean, she picked the first lawyer she met. She's not read a single book, or even website, on divorce. She demanded I tell her if I want the house or not, like tonight before she went to the appointment. I had to patiently explain I couldn't possibly know that until we had it appraised, had at least 2 or 3 realtors tell us what it's REALLY worth in the market, etc. And honestly I'd also have to know what the child support arrangements would be, too, before I could answer that, because I'd have to know what income I'd need. So I said, listen, we need to talk about that at length, slowly, sometime soon and start making lists of what we want in the agreement.
She gets pissed off talking about it though, the anger is visible and palpable. She grits her teeth constantly when talking to me. She really hates me...I think she cannot handle the fact that I'm not getting emotional. Maybe the Prozac IS working, I don't know, but I'm unnaturally calm about it and it seems to piss her off.
I'd LIKE to think it's because she knows she's doing the wrong thing, and trying to hold onto her anger so she doesn't have to realize what she's doing, but I don't think it is. More likely, she's pissed I keep calmly suggesting she's wrong and not thinking it through.
I'm not having much success SHUTTING THE HELL UP. I am working on it. But it's really hard. I keep saying, why are you throwing away half your life with your son, and the last 9 years, without a fight...quitting just when it could change. But it's pointless, I need to SHUT UP about it already and go back to giving her space. Nothing else makes any sense.
I mean, I know it's not over, just the opposite, here is just where it STARTS. But taking the step of taking her mom's money and filing...well...it's a lot less likely she's going to back down.
My plan hasn't changed - get the agreement signed, then destroy her affair and see what happens, but I'm pretty sure now - this is a prediction here - that what that's REALLY going to do is drive them right into each other's arms. His wife will move out, and she'll move in. And the fantasy will still make it seem great for awhile while the divorce plows on and I move on with my life. She may yet regret all this but by then, I'll have moved on and won't be able to go back.
So, not much else to say, really. I'm hoping this depression phase is the end of the beginning, that it's finally sunk in that yep - I'm getting divorced, I can't change it, I can't change HER, etc.etc.etc.
Oh, yeah, I'm still on FMLA 'till Jan 3rd, though I think I'm going to get the doc to put in for me to do half-days if she will, for at least the last week of December, so I can ease back into things. I can't stay out of work any longer or I'll be in trouble, FMLA laws or not.
I'm out...it's late, and I've got an early date with my son tomorrow morning. :)
I think what it is, is that it's finally sinking in...it's for real. She's not going to "come to her senses" as I've been thinking for awhile.
She is just so angry and so set on divorce she sees nothing else, wants nothing else. I still think she's not really thinking it through, but what I think doesn't matter, she's doing it.
So tonight it's official, she filed the papers, I'll get 'em next week. Maybe now I can get out of the funk a little bit, that the waiting is over.
She picked the first lawyer she went to see, her mom paid the retainer and the court costs (nice of her, eh?) and the papers are filed. Without alimony pen lite she says, and I believe her on that.
She really isn't taking it seriously, though. I mean, she picked the first lawyer she met. She's not read a single book, or even website, on divorce. She demanded I tell her if I want the house or not, like tonight before she went to the appointment. I had to patiently explain I couldn't possibly know that until we had it appraised, had at least 2 or 3 realtors tell us what it's REALLY worth in the market, etc. And honestly I'd also have to know what the child support arrangements would be, too, before I could answer that, because I'd have to know what income I'd need. So I said, listen, we need to talk about that at length, slowly, sometime soon and start making lists of what we want in the agreement.
She gets pissed off talking about it though, the anger is visible and palpable. She grits her teeth constantly when talking to me. She really hates me...I think she cannot handle the fact that I'm not getting emotional. Maybe the Prozac IS working, I don't know, but I'm unnaturally calm about it and it seems to piss her off.
I'd LIKE to think it's because she knows she's doing the wrong thing, and trying to hold onto her anger so she doesn't have to realize what she's doing, but I don't think it is. More likely, she's pissed I keep calmly suggesting she's wrong and not thinking it through.
I'm not having much success SHUTTING THE HELL UP. I am working on it. But it's really hard. I keep saying, why are you throwing away half your life with your son, and the last 9 years, without a fight...quitting just when it could change. But it's pointless, I need to SHUT UP about it already and go back to giving her space. Nothing else makes any sense.
I mean, I know it's not over, just the opposite, here is just where it STARTS. But taking the step of taking her mom's money and filing...well...it's a lot less likely she's going to back down.
My plan hasn't changed - get the agreement signed, then destroy her affair and see what happens, but I'm pretty sure now - this is a prediction here - that what that's REALLY going to do is drive them right into each other's arms. His wife will move out, and she'll move in. And the fantasy will still make it seem great for awhile while the divorce plows on and I move on with my life. She may yet regret all this but by then, I'll have moved on and won't be able to go back.
So, not much else to say, really. I'm hoping this depression phase is the end of the beginning, that it's finally sunk in that yep - I'm getting divorced, I can't change it, I can't change HER, etc.etc.etc.
Oh, yeah, I'm still on FMLA 'till Jan 3rd, though I think I'm going to get the doc to put in for me to do half-days if she will, for at least the last week of December, so I can ease back into things. I can't stay out of work any longer or I'll be in trouble, FMLA laws or not.
I'm out...it's late, and I've got an early date with my son tomorrow morning. :)
posted by Fensty at 2:05 AM
20 Comments:
When Other Guy's wife finds out about the affair it will probably NOT drive OG and EL together. I was in your wife's situation and when his wife found out she wanted to be sure that she kept him just to let everyone know that she could. She let him know his life/finances would be in shambles if he left. He is still married but now his wife does whatever/whomever she wants. I was just something on the side and EL will realize that's all she is too when everything comes out in the open.
I hope you are right, I really do. Not because I still have my own fantasy that suddenly everything will be fixed, but just because it might cause her to take another look at our situation and TRY to at least fight for our marriage.
That is the part I am most angry about. She's quitting without a fight in the most important decision of her life to date, and putting our son through it all...without TRYING.
ARGH! If I can get past THAT, I will be in a better place.
Telling on EL to this other man's wife is going to accomplish one thing for certain:
1. It's going to piss her off all to hell. She's going to hate you. Maybe for a short time, maybe forever. The fallout to that depends on her... but could go so far as having a deep impact on your son. Having two parents who can't stand to be in the same room as one another probably isn't a great environment for a little boy to grow up in. Can instill alot of confidence and positive feelings for him. Now you might be saying "well, that's all on her isn't it?" but you have to take some responsibility for your actions. Why are you doing this? Is it for her benefit? No. Is it for his wife's benefit... you might try to spin it that way, but you don't know her so really, cynic that I am, I can't believe you have any deep rooted commitment to ensure the world remains monogomous and that all cheating husbands are caught. I'm going to venture that you're doing this cause you're pissed off. You want to stir the pot, you want to ruin her bizarre happiness, you don't want some other man boinking YOUR EL, you want some control... either way you want to stir the pot for your own selfish reasons, and that really could have a very negative impact on your relationship with EL, which ultimately has a negative impact the boy. You guys might not be together anymore, but you have to be a team nonetheless for this innocent little boy's sake if not for your own sanity.
Now there's a ramble.
It might have the effect of breaking up the affair, like the anonymous commenter said. It might have the effect of driving them closer together... really you can't know, not knowing OM or his wife and what will happen when everything hits the fan. It could have any number of possible effects... it could drive EL back to you, it could drive her farther away... quite frankly it could drive herself to hang herself in your garage... really most outcomes are all speculation aside from the one sure thing:
It will piss her off immeasurably.
Just be prepared, cause when you meddle in other peoples like it can inevitably have consequences you didn't intend for... sometimes good, sometimes not so good either.
Try the shoe on the other foot, Sara.
Let's say you are married, and unbeknownst to you, your husband is having an affair. Would you want someone to let you know, or would you like it to remain in the dark while you live in a marriage based on lies? Think hard, because these things rarely stay in the dark. At some point the truth will likely spill out. When that happens, wouldn't you have wanted to know sooner? Wouldn't you be upset with the people in your life who DID know but kept it hidden?
And will it piss his wife off? Probably. And make her ashamed, which is good. People should be ashamed of their shameful actions. In the best of cases, people feel that shame on their own; in the worst, they need a wake-up call.
-- Barbara
See now, I get what Sara is saying. It's true that EL will hate you if you tell, but I think it's important that she not be allowed to spin this whole thing as being all your fault. You know she's telling her family, your friends, and eventually your son that she had to leave because you were a big mean jerk. But, if you put this out there now, it will be a lot harder to revise history down the line.
And I do think his wife has a right to know. Speaking as a wife myself (with a husband I am 100% sure is not cheating on me) if in some bizarro, crazy, time shifting way, he was, DAMN STRAIGHT I'd want to know. Not only because then you can decide if you want to be planning your life with this scumbag, but because you can then protect yourself against any unforseen side effects. Messing around has a nasty little habit of leading to STDs and I'd certainly want to know if there was any risk for that at all.
So, are you doing this partly for revenge? Probably. Regardless, I think it's the only thing you can do and you're showing a heck of a lot of restraint waiting post-divorce to do so.
JMHO
RHG :)
Sara, I value your opinion, you know that....and I'm glad you're a contrary voice, 'cuz in a lot of ways I am afraid you might be right. It probably won't help, might make things worse.
And I've never hidden the fact that I'm doing it for 3 equal reasons in my head:
1 - As advice from various people and websites have said, it's the only way to end the affair.
2 - His wife does have a right to know, not 'cuz I have a duty to make sure the world is monogamous, but because I know, and if I know, then it's wrong of me not to tell her.
3 - Yes, petty self-satisfaction.
I honestly do believe, though, that I'm doing it for all those reasons and not just #3.
I also have to consider the advice of all these people who have BEEN there... Mac, Barbara, Martha (who I haven't seen comment in awhile) my friends D and Zebra...and others who have drifted in and out of the blog, those with personal experience tend to all agree, end the affair by any means necessary.
I am STILL not saying I've 100% decided. And fate has a way of messing with the best laid plans anyway - they are both so indiscreet, there is NO guarantee the affair will not come out on it's own without any interference from me...which, ironically, I DON'T want - and I admit this is a a purely selfish reason - because if it does, I will lose a lot of the leverage I have now.
You are right, though, I know my wife and it WILL piss her off...that I'd control things that way, screw up a good thing for her, etc.etc...she will be LIVID and yes it may not recover. Ever.
That is why I say...you give good food for thought, so thanks.
JD
(RHG...lol...formerly BHG... :)
JD,
When my wife had her first affair several years ago, I was aware of it before the OG's wife was. I believed my wife when she said that the OG's wife KNEW about the affair and was sort of looking the other way.
Eventually they were caught in a "compromising position" ;-) at work, and for legal reasons the OG had to tell his wife.
And that was the end of it. Sort of. We moved away for other reasons, and the guy still tries to call my wife at times. She isn't interested...or so she says.
In retrospect, if I had told the OG's wife much earlier, the public embarassment would have never happened.
BTW, as for me, my wife's latest affair is over (under orders from the marriage counselor), but she says she still wants to move out and rent a place nearby to try to work things out in her own head. However, knowing her, she is eventually likely to use the place as a binge-purge palace and a fuckpad.
As for the herpes scare, well, she was tested and it came back negative....but when I went in to MY doctor (a female), and she heard that the affair began in August and ended in early November, and my wife had the H test done in late November....well the doc said (before I could even tell her it was negative), "It's negative, of course. You can't believe the test until you take it 6 months after exposure."
Great reassurance. Anyway, the doctor (in addition to taking blood and urine) also performed a procedure that was akin to sticking a semi-flattened incense stick up my schlong (or "schlort", as the case may be) and then TWIRLED it! YOWWWWWWWWWWWW! It was awful!
The only mitigating factor was that the doc (actually a nurse practitioner) was young, female, Russian, and attractive, with a sense of humor.
So even though I'll know soon if MY test is positive, I really WON'T know for sure until it is redone in 5 1/2 more months. So what am I to do in the meantime? No sex with my wife? (condoms are not necessarily effective against herpes, espec. if an outbreak is on an adjacent area) No attempts at meeting other women? (there's NO WAY I'd even allow a POSSIBLE relationship to bloom without disclosing the status of my testing) My wife has literally ROBBED me of 6 months of my life.
Anyway...back to you...
EL is soooooooo selfish. One would think that (barring any PHYSICAL violence against her) she would overlook or endure your minor misbehaviors for the sake of the boy. But nooooooooooooo.
It's ALL ABOUT *HER*! That is incredibly selfish.
I vote for telling the OG's wife. Do you REALLY want to be married to someone who is so selfish (and therefore a poor parent)? It sounds like you deserve better. Your temper tantrums are NOTHING compared to her outrageous behavior.
(BTW, later I want to post about the issue of "controlling behavior" and "verbal abuse"...two catchphrases popular among the man-haters in our society.)
If she really cared about the boy (more than the OG's schlong ;-) then she'd be down on her knees (so to speak) BEGGING for forgiveness.
If you REALLY want to piss her off, you'd give her a deadline: "If I don't get a call from Mrs. OG by tomorrow at 7pm, acknowledging that she has been made aware of the affair, then *I* will call her. And I'm NOT bluffing."
You know, JD. She has treated you like shit. Sometimes you just need to give it right back.
SH
Nah, Mac, I agree with you. SH, if I tip her off that I'm going to tell his wife, it gives them time to set up a cover.
The easiest one being, he goes to his wife and says, "Honey...it's the CRAZIEST thing...one of the gals I work with - trust me, she's a dog, too - she sent me an Email one time asking me a question from her home computer, and her husband saw it, and he FREAKED OUT and says we're having an affair! She just called me and told me I need to be careful because he's a violent abuser and owns guns...so...look I'm sure we don't REALLY need to worry, this girl she's kinda weird too (I mean look who she's married to!) and I don't really know if I believe any of it, I think she sort of has a crush on me or something, for all I know she's TELLING her husband we're having an affair...but look if you see a strange car outside call the cops, OK?"
I don't know if EL is smart enough to think of a story like that, but the OG probably is, he's a player...it's what I'd do if I were like that.
(*my wife is not a dog by the way, I'm saying HE'D say that...)
So...nope. There will be no warning. None at all. The ONLY thing I'm not sure about is if I'm ALSO going to Email the Other Guy at the same time I tell his wife. Like, "Hey, OG....you know me, I'm EL's husband...I want to let you know I'm talking to your wife, and.... And by the way OG, you can thank EL for NOT telling you that I've known your name and address since BEFORE your first date. Yeah, that's right. EL has been lying to you just as much as she's been lying to me. Great feeling, isn't it? Just so you know who you're getting involved with, my friend. Oh and I hope that yeast infection she had cleared up...what, she didn't tell you that either? Oh, dude...sorry. I better tell your wife that one, she might want to check with her doctor..."
Evil? Fuck yeah. :)
JD
Bad Husband! Bad! But anyway, don't say it's a measely yeast infection. That's just a minor annoyance easily cured with an over-the-counter medication. (Kidding! I mean, it really is sold OTC, but you wouldn't *really* give the other wife a panic like that. Right?)
-- Barbara
I have been both the other woman and the blissfully ignorant wife, so I hope you take that into account when reading my comment. (although I've a feeling that cwmac person will disregard that bit)
This is a frightening blog, and yes, I've read the majority of it so my opinion isn't based on this one post. It's frightening to me because of the way you describe yourself, your actions, and your insistence on equally split custody with little or no regard of the best interests of your child.
As the OW, I began an affair because I felt the need to be valued, loved, and free of my ex's controlling, manipulative behavior. The OG provided me with periods of time that I didn't have to be anyone or anything other than just me, and that taste of freedom was heady enough that I was willing to throw away the rest of my life for another taste. The more the ex told me I was wrong, the tighter I clung to the little bright flame of joy the affair provided me. Eventually, I got so tired of his harassment that I gave in and went to counseling. His behavior changed for the better. It lasted about 6 months, then he reverted when he felt comfortably in control again.
He then started an affair, and I didn't learn of it until his girlfriend's husband told me. It was devastating, and when I confronted my husband about it, the consequences were such that it took me a long time to recover enough to get him out of my life. He also took it out on his girlfriend.
He was like you, BH. He manipulated me, belittled me, spied on me, recorded and took photos and went through the computers, the cell phone, and all my belongings. I was terrified and angry. I felt like a possession instead of a person. I really hope EL is brave enough to follow through with the divorce. I wasn't. Don't make assumptions that she hasn't done her research re: lawyers, unless you're watching her 24/7. My ex had no idea I was even considering it when I filed, and I'd read books and met with several people without his knowledge.
As for your child, the very best thing you can do for him is to back the hell off and do your damnedest to try to maintain a civil relationship with his mom, to be able to give and take as necessary. Custody isn't cut and dried. Take it from one who knows. If you're wise and patient, you can save your kid lots of heartache and therapy. That's a good thing, because even in a civil arrangement, it's devastating to the children.
Kris
Survival of the fittest, baby.
Sounds like you can do it.
Q
Kris, excuse me a minute, but are you for real?
Both you and EL selfishly want the freedom to f*ck around on your husbands with utter disregard to their feelings (or ultimately, the feelings of your children, who also pay the price). But if JD tries to ascertain the truth of what's going on IN HIS OWN LIFE, he's manipulative and belittling? Boy howdy! Learn something new every day.
Here's a thought: If you don't like your husband checking up on you, don't make a habit of lying to him.
Geez-o-pete. What chutzpah. That's like the son who murdered both his parents and then begged for clemency from the judge because he's an orphan.
Oh, and JD knows divorce is devastating to his son. It is probably one of the reasons he's been fighting so hard to keep this marriage alive. (Don't mean to speak for you, JD, but that seems like a no-brainer.)
Kris, like you, I was a straying wife. I don't know about you, but I'm not married to an ogre. Perhaps you were. Or perhaps you're revising history to suit your current condition. I don't know.
What I can see is that you've put a lot of thought into justifying your affair. Hey, so did I. About the only thing un"adulterated" in the whole affair was the line of BS I came up with to justify myself.
I can also see that you have issues with your husband. Maybe you have good cause, maybe not. But either way, are you 100 percent sure you're not simply projecting your own issues onto JD?
--Barbara
Excellent responses, Mac and Barbara.
Let me tell you--I'm having a hard time not using REALLY foul language to describe "Kris".
In addition to what M & B have dissected, I particularly liked:
"As the OW, I began an affair because I felt the need to be valued, loved, and free of my ex's controlling, manipulative behavior."
I can bet you that the reason for the "controlling, manipulative behavior" was because Kris was OUT OF control, in one way or another. When one is married, one has the obligation NOT to be out of control (just as JD has admitted the excess of his tantrums). Having an affair is being OUT OF CONTROL, and deserves even MORE "controlling behavior" on the part of the spouse.
As others have said, if Kris was so unhappy, she should have gotten a divorce PRIOR TO the affair.
Kris obviously has no morals (she's probably an evil atheist ;-)
While her husband's revenge affair was counterproductive, I don't blame him AT ALL. MORE POWER TO HIM. GOOD FOR HIM.
Oh, man. It's taking everything I can muster to hold back from calling Kris what she deserves to be called.
And damn, I still need to address the "controlling" and "verbal abuse" issues. Women, in particular, think that somehow they should be immune from criticism for their stupid/reckless/immoral/destructive/costly/illegal [you pick it] behaviors!!
[BTW, my suggestion to tell EL that you will tell the OGW if she doesn't...well, I was really just thinking out loud how to torment her as she has tormented you. I agree that you should just call the OGW with no warning. You might want to feel out (so to speak) the OGW with small talk--a few questions and introduction (to evaluate HER openness/honesty) before breaking the bad news. WHAT if she already knows and has been condoning it? Are you gonna be mad at her? ]
SH
The wife has a right to know, just for the health factor alone. She has a right to know, because it is her husband.
It is JD's business because the OM is taking what rightfully belongs to JD.
As you know, I was the guilty party, and oh yeah, I tried to justify it in my mind in every way shape and form, and what I came to realize is that there is absoulutely NO justification for having an affair.
It is wrong, plain and simple, no ifs, ands, or buts.
I had NO RIGHT to give away what belonged to my husband, not my heart or my body.
JD, you have every right to feel as you do, and the wife has every right to know.
Maybe it is time you completely backed off, not that you are giving up, but right now you are her safety net, she knows that she can come back if this affair flops as it is likely to. Maybe it's time to say to her, fine, it's over, if this is what you want, then go for it, I won't stop you.
Then tell his wife, because for sure, his wife may be pissed and hurt beyond belief, but I know a lot of wives whose husbands cheated and they are still together. It's not so easy to leave when you start adding in the children and finances, and I think the odds of OM leaving his wife are quite slim.
And he will mostly likely lie to his wife, and tell her whatever she wants to hear just so he can stay.
Just my 2 cents.
Learned.
One thing, Learned - I don't now, nor do I ever, think I "own" my wife's heart, head, or body.
I know you didn't really mean it that way, you were speaking in terms of wedding vows, but I just wanted to clarify.
We ARE married (though the waters are muddied now that the papers are filed) so yes, I don't think she has the right to be having an affair, that's the POINT of marriage.
I just don't like seeing a sentence that says, "She can't give away what JD rightfully owns."
Anyway, my plan has not changed, but I've added an IF...
"Once the agreement is signed, I will tell the OM's wife IF I think it's the right thing to do." But I still cannot do it before we have a signed legal agreement about the divorce.
I'm still not sure it's right for me to do it. I hear EVERYTHING you have all said, but I've also heard from a few people who have said the opposite. Not just Kris here, but some who have been through it. I think perhaps they don't want to "come out" on the Blog and post because of the more overwhelming support for telling OM's wife.
I still lean towards doing it, since I don't think it matters now and we're almost certainly going to get divorced, I might as well blow the affair out of the water and see what that does, and give his wife the knowledge that I do think she should have...but I'm not 100% sure. I won't know 'till I do it, if I do.
JD
I think I'm a few comments late to get back in the game, but here it goes anyway.
No, I am not married. No, I've never been cheated on that I know of. Maybe I don't have as much experience as some, being that I'm young, and really I don't feel I need to defend my life experience to anyone and I don't take offence to some of you who feel you know "better" than me.
Really, I don't know that there is a "right" answer in this. It's a matter of personal opinions, beliefs, morals.
Let me begin by saying that I don't believe cheating in a marriage is an answer to a problem. By no means do I think that what EL is doing is "right".
It was asked what I would want to happen if I were the OM's wife. Well, and this might come across as self righteous or naive or just plain stupid, but first I don't think I will end up in that situation. Why, you ask? Because I truly believe that what leads people to cheating is being unhappy in a relationship. Alot of it, as JD has been illustrating so brilliantly for anyone who cares to read, is about being perceptive. It's easy to gloss over problems as "no big deal" and go to bed angry etc etc. I truly believe that if you work hard at keeping a relationship strong and healthy it will flourish rather than what's happened to poor JD. He admits himself that he's caused problems, and unfortunately he may just have reached the point of no return, where no work he can do is going to be enough.
I believe it was Barbara who proposed that somehow, by unravelling this affair which may or may not happen by telling the OM's wife... for example, hypothetically the OM's wife could be in the process of having her own affair, and this could break up their marriage, and drive EL and OM closer together. What I'm saying is that this course of action could have countless consequences, on their relationship, on JD's relationship with EL, on the Boy, on the whole space time continuum. Not knowing the story behind OM and his wife, who really knows? For all any commenter here knows OM and his wife could have a polyamorous relationship, as unlikely as that is. Maybe OM's wife is abused and this will be just the kick in the pants she needs to leave him/shoot him/take a bunch of sleeping pills.
My point is not that telling OM's wife will NOT stop the affair, who knows, it could... my point is that this is merely speculation... there could be so many possible outcomes to this course of action that until it's done, there can be no certainty.
So back off my tangent about "Would I want someone to tell me if Scott (boyfriend at the time of writing my profile, fiance now) was cheating on me". The answer is no, I would not want some stranger calling me and shaking my entire world like that. By no means do I think anyone can impose a DUTY on someone to go around telling people they've never met of their cheating spouses. Yes OM is a bad man, yes HE should tell his wife, why JD should have some ethical duty to get in the middle of that circus/soap opera....
The bottom line JD, is not that I think you would be "wrong" to tell him because "he doesn't deserve it"... I think you would be unwise to do it, because although what he may be doing to his wife (remember, you don't really know that a) she doesn't know already b) she would care c) she has any feelings for OM at all anyhow) is probably not a very "right" thing to do to anyone, the fallout cannot be anticipated. You may be doing her a favour, you may end up breaking up the affair and driving EL right back where you want her... but there are real potential consequences to your actions that you need to fully appreciate, consider and balance before you make your final decision.
JD,
I talked to a woman at work today (who, at my suggestion, has read a small portion of this blog, but who hopes to read more when she has time)who was the victim (twice) of her ex-husband's infidelity.
IIRC, she said that, in one of the incidents, she wrote to the OGW, and the OGW didn't believe her. But she (as a victim) definitely recommends that you DO tell the OGW.
I hope that my friend posts here someday soon.
My wife has also read some of the blog, and when I told her that EL has filed, she was rather upset. I think she really feels for your son.
HE gets more sympathy from her than *I* do! :-)
SH
JD, I did not mean to imply ownership as in owning a car (or cattle for that matter.)
What I meant, is that on the day I spoke my vows to my husband and he to me, we "gave" to each other ourselves, heart, body and mind.
When I cheated, I gave away to someone else what should have been kept for only my husband.
When you share intimacy, emotionally and physically with your spouse, it should be sacred, between that man and wife.
But too often, we break that sacredness, that emotional and physical bond.
We break it in many ways.
Love, honor and cherish.
How often do we break those vows without even thinking about it? Maybe not with another person, but when we disrespect that person, verbally or emotionally hurt them, disregard their feelings and just generally being self centered asses. I am guilty of this, and it is a life long process to learn to honor those vows.
Unfortunately we don't get a spouse manual when we get married.
None of us here as well meaning as we are, can decide for you what to do when it comes to EL, OM or his wife, it is completely up to you.
I agree that you should wait until the agreement is in place and signed before you do anything.
Considering the difficult time you are going through, I think you are thinking pretty clear. As for spying and taking pictures, that's nothing, you should have seen the stuff my DH did. I wish he would have taken pictures, it would have been easier.
Learned.
Wow. I think this thread has now had more comments than any other.
It continues to seem as if the issue of tell the OM's wife vs. not is the key thing here.
We should, as we say at my company (and probably all of yours too) "table this issue."
Whether I tell her or not, it won't be for several more weeks at the least until the agreement is done. Until then, I can't see how I can tell her.
I'm sort of thinking, maybe to split the difference, I might just call the Other Guy himself. Introduce myself. Explain to him that he's been lied to himself - that my wife has never told him that I knew his name and address since BEFORE their first date.
That I have a stack of 19 pages of Email that I can use to absolutely prove beyond any doubt in his wife's mind what he's been doing. That my wife never told him that either.
That his job, marriage, and stature in the community, for want of a bette term, are all in serious jeopardy due to his actions, and my wife's, and both their lies.
That I'll give him 24 hours to have his wife call me back and tell me he told her everything. That I'll be sure to ask her a few key questions that only his wife could really know, to make sure he doesn't just have some random woman call me posing as his wife.
That if he doesn't, well, I'll have to do it myself, or maybe just Email his boss (who's name I will give) at work and let him explain to the boss how he's been using the work Email system to exchange pornographic Emails with my wife. That I expect he'd NEVER let that happen since he loves my wife so much, and therefore, he wouldn't want my wife to lose HER job in addition to him losing his.
And, I'll commend him on 'winning' my wife, congratulate him on what he's getting....a woman who's lied every step of the way to both of us, to her own parents, and who is so selfish as to follow her own base instincts rather than put our son first. A woman who cheated on her husband, without ever first trying to address the issues with her husband, but instead turned to someone at work - a place with hundreds of available men, I might add, just like him - to talk to and eventually commit adultery with.
And just leave it at that. Could he successfully "lie" his way out of that? Maybe. If I could lure him out in public and tape record the whole thing, that would be sweet, however. :)
Probably wouldn't be that hard...call him at home, and say the first part of this by way of intro and then say, "We need to talk, buddy - meet me at the bar down the street in half an hour, or I'll just call back and get your wife next time."
I dunno. We'll see. But the last few days that idea has gelled in my head. He would probably call my wife, and she would probably confront me, but I'd simply say, "So? What are you going to do, what does it matter? She has a right to know and one of you needs to tell her, so maybe you should do it."
And you know, it might all be a bluff on my part. I might not tell her anyway.
That might be the happy medium to this whole situation. It will probably end the affair one way or the other. IF it doesn't, and pushes them closer together, then screw it, it was obviously "not meant to be" for me any my wife anyway.
How much of this is because I went on a "date" last night? I don't know. That will be the subject of the entry I will type after this comment.
JD the BH
Wow, I was defintely fed up with things when I wrote that comment. Definitely can see my controlling and manipulating side in THAT.
Reading it back, I think the thing I'd change, is demanding he tell his own wife and make her call me, that's the assholish controlling part I noticed in that. None of my business. I'll just tell him the whole story and let him do whatever the hell he wants.
He'd be a dumbass not to tell his wife to start some kind of damage control, just out of the FEAR of what I'd do. I'd certainly let him THINK I'm going to call her at some indeterminate point in the future, and I'd make sure to tell him that if I ever do, and she says "Oh my husband told me about you, you're the wacko who thinks he's having an affair with your wife 'cuz you can't handle they are friends and she's dumping you" then I'd have to be such an incredible jackass as to get them fired just to prove my point.
But, honestly, I wouldn't ever do that anyway. But they don't know that. It's the ace of spades I've got in the hole - even if they try to claim I "faked" the emails, if I tell their boss there's sexual harrassment going on and he gets the IT guys to check the system logs...they're toast. AGain, I won't do that, but I'll let them THINK I will do that.
JD the BH who's a manipulator, most definitely.
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