Sunday morning. More on last night...
So....yeah. It's over. We had our talk, she listened, she nodded, she said "I'll think about it."
But she's not going to change her mind. She's convinced that ending our marriage is what's right for her. She doesn't want to give up the affair, the only thing that's making her happy right now. She doesn't want to invest another 6 months of working, counseling, watching me make changes, etc. because she's convinced it will be a waste of time.
She makes illogical statements like, "It's the only thing that's getting me through this." I try to point out, that if she were working on the marriage, THAT would be the new thing that would be "getting her through this." That there'd be no "this" to get through anymore, if she'd only try. Deaf ears.
Another one was, "I don't want to put The Boy through that." At first I thought that was a positive thing, she meant, didn't want to put him through a divorce. No, apparently, what she meant was, not put him through watching his parents work on it, try to fall in love again. WTF?! That seems the clearest sign of all her mind is made up - she must be thinking, why let JD and The Boy suddenly get all warmer and closer in relationship as we "work on it" then to just get divorced anyway.
She admits she feels guilty all the time, but doesn't seem to understand that's poisoning the relationship between us right there, and making it impossible to fix, and that the solution to that is to STOP SEEING HIM and work on the marriage, so she can have a clear conscience later if it doesn't work.
The weirdest thing of all was her saying, "I want to get divorced now, because I don't want to divorce you because of someone else."
WTF?!?
In her heart, she says, she wants a divorce because her marriage is over and she doesn't love me anymore. Yet she agrees if the other guy wasn't in the picture, she'd probably work at it. But somehow she reconciles those two statements and comes up with, "I'm not leaving you for someone else."
It's as weird a technical argument as, "I didn't have sex with him." Oral sex and foreplay apparently don't count to her. They do in court, however.
She seems to think he's getting a divorce eventually, so that if he would suddenly be available in 6 months and then we got divorced, it would then be "because of him." But it's not because of him now, apparently.
So after the talk, when she said she'd think about it, she made a big point of saying that at 11 PM she needed her "me time." What did she do? Suddenly another rented movie appeared out of her car, and she started watching it. So they had another cute little "date" of watching the same movie together at the same time. (I'm not paranoid, once again it was a movie we'd rented a few weeks ago. And remember, the note I found was discussing the same thing...)
Apparently our talking made about zero impression.
I still can't get it through my head it's over, of course. I still can't think about anything else. I still convince myself she'll "come around" after she thinks about it.
I know how stupid that is, of course. But I'm doing it anyway.
I try to find the most optimistic things she said and did during our hourlong chat, and cling to them. Stupid.
I play the conversation over and over in my head, thinking of other things to say. Stupid.
I think that if I argue more and point out the legal stuff, she'll think again. Stupid.
It was VERY DIFFICULT for me to not give her a mental "slap" when she was saying that silly "I'm not leaving you for someone else" thing and reply with, "According to my lawyer, that's exactly what you are doing in the eyes of the law. Don't you know this whole affair is coming out in court, as a matter of public record?"
But I didn't. I'm still holding those cards, for the time she comes to me and says "I've thought about it and it's over. Let's file for divorce." I figure I'll have one more chance to talk at that point.
I also am definitely going to call his wife after EL finally says it's over and done. My reasons? She claims he tells her he also is going through a "situation" and he might be getting divorced too. It's probably true to some extent.
So, my reason goes beyond revenge and spite, quite simply, his wife and I might be able to help each other out in a courtroom. She may be able to be a witness for me, and I for her, to this affair. Maybe he HAS told his wife some, or all, of it. (hmm...though, I watch enough "Law and Order" to know there's some "privledge" between spouses, where spoken confessions can't be admitted...dunno though...)
Maybe, like me, she's got proof that can be used in court - and hers plus mine, for both of us, might really help us each out. Who knows what letters, receipts, whatever she might have found, that can go with what I've found and combine to a stronger case.
Getting them both fired from work, OK, I admit that one is pure spite and revenge and I probably won't, but boy do I ever think about it.
But she's not going to change her mind. She's convinced that ending our marriage is what's right for her. She doesn't want to give up the affair, the only thing that's making her happy right now. She doesn't want to invest another 6 months of working, counseling, watching me make changes, etc. because she's convinced it will be a waste of time.
She makes illogical statements like, "It's the only thing that's getting me through this." I try to point out, that if she were working on the marriage, THAT would be the new thing that would be "getting her through this." That there'd be no "this" to get through anymore, if she'd only try. Deaf ears.
Another one was, "I don't want to put The Boy through that." At first I thought that was a positive thing, she meant, didn't want to put him through a divorce. No, apparently, what she meant was, not put him through watching his parents work on it, try to fall in love again. WTF?! That seems the clearest sign of all her mind is made up - she must be thinking, why let JD and The Boy suddenly get all warmer and closer in relationship as we "work on it" then to just get divorced anyway.
She admits she feels guilty all the time, but doesn't seem to understand that's poisoning the relationship between us right there, and making it impossible to fix, and that the solution to that is to STOP SEEING HIM and work on the marriage, so she can have a clear conscience later if it doesn't work.
The weirdest thing of all was her saying, "I want to get divorced now, because I don't want to divorce you because of someone else."
WTF?!?
In her heart, she says, she wants a divorce because her marriage is over and she doesn't love me anymore. Yet she agrees if the other guy wasn't in the picture, she'd probably work at it. But somehow she reconciles those two statements and comes up with, "I'm not leaving you for someone else."
It's as weird a technical argument as, "I didn't have sex with him." Oral sex and foreplay apparently don't count to her. They do in court, however.
She seems to think he's getting a divorce eventually, so that if he would suddenly be available in 6 months and then we got divorced, it would then be "because of him." But it's not because of him now, apparently.
So after the talk, when she said she'd think about it, she made a big point of saying that at 11 PM she needed her "me time." What did she do? Suddenly another rented movie appeared out of her car, and she started watching it. So they had another cute little "date" of watching the same movie together at the same time. (I'm not paranoid, once again it was a movie we'd rented a few weeks ago. And remember, the note I found was discussing the same thing...)
Apparently our talking made about zero impression.
I still can't get it through my head it's over, of course. I still can't think about anything else. I still convince myself she'll "come around" after she thinks about it.
I know how stupid that is, of course. But I'm doing it anyway.
I try to find the most optimistic things she said and did during our hourlong chat, and cling to them. Stupid.
I play the conversation over and over in my head, thinking of other things to say. Stupid.
I think that if I argue more and point out the legal stuff, she'll think again. Stupid.
It was VERY DIFFICULT for me to not give her a mental "slap" when she was saying that silly "I'm not leaving you for someone else" thing and reply with, "According to my lawyer, that's exactly what you are doing in the eyes of the law. Don't you know this whole affair is coming out in court, as a matter of public record?"
But I didn't. I'm still holding those cards, for the time she comes to me and says "I've thought about it and it's over. Let's file for divorce." I figure I'll have one more chance to talk at that point.
I also am definitely going to call his wife after EL finally says it's over and done. My reasons? She claims he tells her he also is going through a "situation" and he might be getting divorced too. It's probably true to some extent.
So, my reason goes beyond revenge and spite, quite simply, his wife and I might be able to help each other out in a courtroom. She may be able to be a witness for me, and I for her, to this affair. Maybe he HAS told his wife some, or all, of it. (hmm...though, I watch enough "Law and Order" to know there's some "privledge" between spouses, where spoken confessions can't be admitted...dunno though...)
Maybe, like me, she's got proof that can be used in court - and hers plus mine, for both of us, might really help us each out. Who knows what letters, receipts, whatever she might have found, that can go with what I've found and combine to a stronger case.
Getting them both fired from work, OK, I admit that one is pure spite and revenge and I probably won't, but boy do I ever think about it.
posted by Fensty at 7:29 AM
11 Comments:
ahhh, so after reading your initial post, describing The Bad Husband You Had Become, i am sensing from this post alone that this man she is seeing is also married.
and she is under the impression he will leave his wife and they will live happily ever after?
i understand where she is because i was there at one point in my life, too. however, i had The Good Husband, the husband who didn't deserve a lick of it. go figure.
before i read on, i am just wondering: is she opposed to counseling? have you asked her, with all sincerity after all humility, if she could simply give up the double life she is leading to focus for two months on saving your marriage? believe it or not, after you had The Boy, it stopped being about you.
it's about Him.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
(That comment posted 3 times so I deleted it twice...)
I've suggested counseling, she says she doesn't need it and doesn't need my advice telling her to go, either.
And - I know. You're not alone in telling me it's more about our son than me anymore. That's why I'm trying to be a great Daddy, not just a great husband. In fact I don't try to get all lovey-dovey with her anymore, really...I try to have good times with my son, and hope she'll see that.
But all she can think is, he'll be better off without me, and she'll be happier. I don't know how to overcome that. I certainly don't think it's true, but if she won't work on the marriage for awhile, I don't know else to show her.
Well, that's the point - I know there's no way, and it will end.
I want it to end as quickly as possible if it's going to. I don't know how fast you can get a divorce in PA, probably not as slow as some states because there's no mandate to live apart for years or anything...but I want this OVER if it's OVER, so I can hurt and heal on my own. Living with her every day is torture, pure and simple, and I can't function this way.
are you still living in the same home?
then it's not over.
do either one of you seek an Higher Power?
if not, and if that hasn't been suggested before, it sounds to me like some Divine Intervention is in order. nothing is impossible with God.
nothing.
sign me,
pulled from the pit :)
I'd like to think it's not over, because we are still living here together, but I know it is. I'm not defeatist, I'm just trying to work on acceptance.
I have changed tactics on one thing: As of yesterday, I am being harshly realistic. Like this morning she was talking about new curtains. I said, with no malice or sarcasm or anything, "I don't know why we'd bother, we're not going to have the house much longer."
When The Boy said something today about, "Daddy's not here." (I was in the other room) I said, "Well, I guess we need to get used to that. Daddy won't always be around soon."
I know it could be perceived as being hurtful comments, but I'm not delivering them that way. I explained, "EL, I'm not saying that to be dramatic, but it's time to start thinking about it realistically. If we're divorced, no matter how great the custody arrangements are, let's not kid ourselves that he's not going to be seeing one of us as much as he used to."
Things like that. Maybe she'll think about it objectively for a change.
I haven't even mentioned the cost yet. She's in for a shock I think, I get the idea she doesn't realize how expensive it is, and we don't have that kind of money. I have my stock options nest egg, she's got nothing.
As for a higher power, unfortunately (from your point of view, that is) we're not religious. She does profess to believe in God, but not really "religious" anyway. Myself, I'm about 90% atheist. I've gone way past agnostic.
We were married Lutheran, in her church, but don't attend. I'm not a hypocrite so I did NOT appeal to her vows before God or anything like that. I did appeal to her vows to EACH OTHER however.
It's been suggested before we try religious counseling, start going to church, etc...even just for the closeness and community contacts. At this point it would seem hypocritical and empty, so I don't think that's a good option, and she'd likely not agree anyway. If we get through this, though, actually I did plan to start attending church sometimes, again for the community aspect, family, and so The Boy can make his own choices as he gets older.
you said: if we get through this, though, actually i did plan to start attending church sometimes...
why wait? it's obviously something you have been toying with in your heart...i can't help but wonder if this is God's way of drawing you nearer to Him. i know, i know - He has strange ways of getting our attention, but His thoughts are way higher than ours.
just look at the curve of your Boy's ear. look at how he smiles, how his eyes light up when he is looking at something he loves; how he favors you when he smiles or your wife when he's concentrating. none of that cannot be by accident. there has to be a Higher Being who could have drawn all of that into place. could you have ever been so insightful or clever as to create a being such as The Boy?
food for thought.
peace.
Yes, JD.
Do go to church.
Try a Unitarian church, where atheists, agnostics, Wiccans, deists, gays, etc., etc. are all welcome and where you will probably find more people who obey such commandments as "don't kill", "don't steal"...."DON'T COMMIT ADULTERY", than you will at the average Xian church.
So, yes, JD, do go to church.
I joined my (cheating) wife at her Lutheran church this morning...just to see the baloney that they are being fed. There was really nothing hateful spoken, other than the implication that I, you, and 2/3 of the other humans on this planet won't get into "heaven" with "Jesus" (but instead will spend eternity burning in hell), even though WE didn't kill, WE didn't steal, and WE didn't COMMIT ADULTERY.
If "God" existed, was all-powerful, and was loving "HE" would have prevented the affair, and would have prevented the behaviors (on both sides) that led to this situation. But....as I'm sure you have been reminded NUMEROUS times....HE gives us all FREE WILL. FREE WILL! (He must value free will over murder, theft and adultery!)
So, if he wants you to have free will, it would be a SIN to PRAY and ask him to change anyone's behavior. After all, you are attempting to interfere with God's desire that everyone have FREE WILL!
So, DO NOT PRAY!!!!!
Comprende?? ;-)
And if God created everything....who created God?
[no cop-out BS responses from the peanut gallery...if everything we know had to have a Creator, then "God" had to have a Creator also.]
Now, with the mythical baloney out of the way, let's use our reason:
1. EL may, or may not, be bullshitting you, when she claims that the guy's wife knows that something is going on. Take it from me: ASK THE WIFE.
2. Go do some investigation of the guy, especially if he has been previously married. Here's what I found in the divorce papers of MY wife's boyfriend:
[this is a claim made by his ex's attorney in their response to his filing for divorce in the mid 1990s:]
"...plaintiff [the Other Guy] has a long history of domestic violence and abuse"
Let's just say that, whether true, exaggerated, or untrue, that document has really raised my wife's eyebrows, and she intends to confront him with that later today. So we shall see.
Oh, BTW, the guy is Catholic, my wife is Lutheran, EL claims to be religious, you and I are atheists....so tell me: Who has better morals? Whom would YOU elect as your president?
As for your house...HEY...get those new curtains--- because YOU aren't moving out!!!! YOU are going to enjoy that house WITH the boy. SHE is gonna be out on the street with the OTHER
GUY--and, at most, partial custody.
A contested divorce DOES cost lots of money and requires 2 yrs. of "separation" as I understand it. However, no one is forcing her to contest your keeping of the house and of your getting
primary custody of THE BOY...who, by the way, is CUTER THAN HELL!
Crap, your wife is NUTS!
Unless the other guy is built like John Holmes (who's dead of AIDS), has Bill Gates' money, and is as thoughtful and considerate as Mr. Rogers, your wife is NUTS.
Like mine.
Late breaking news....moments before posting this, I showed my wife THE BOY's picture and she said there is NO WAY she would walk away (even with joint custody) from that kid while he is so little (despite your not doing the laundry enough, not cooking enough, etc., etc.]. She said, "I need to talk to that guy [i.e., you, JD]. I said, "You need to talk to his WIFE."
Of course, since *our* kids are now 11 and 16, I guess it's *OK* for MY wife to screw around and/or walk away.
Go figure!
SH
Lots of comments to answer. :)
SH: Your activism is showing. :) I don't mind, though, you're still respectful and I agree, partly...though I'm not as inflammatory as you. :) As for your wife, hell, it's tempting to give her EL's # and see what happens. :)
Samantha: I'm waiting to see what she officially "decides" but yeah, don't worry, I'm taking it with a grain of salt anyway. If I don't think she's 100% sincere, and/or I see ANYTHING that I don't like (and she's REALLY bad at hiding anything!!) then I will "stealth" her so bad, she won't know what's going on until she gets served... But, if she comes back with "Yes, I want to work on it, and I've cut off anything with The Other Guy" then, we'll see how it goes. I can't help it, call me a foolish sucker, but I have to try it, if she's willing.
crmac: Yeah, same thing - I WILL call the other guy's wife...if my wife says she wants the divorce, I'll call her almost immediately. I might call HIM first and see if I can suprise him into admitting something over the phone (taping it, which is illegal, but only for his wife to hear) before calling her. But I will, because as I said before, she might be able to help in my divorce case if she has proof, and I CERTAINLY can help her in hers with the proof I already have!
If on the other hand my wife says she's willing to try, then, I won't call the other guy's wife at all, until or unless, as above to Samantha, I get even the slightest inkling she's not sincere.
See, deep down, I'm kinda wondering if she's going to say "Yeah, let's work on it" just to buy herself time to prepare the divorce.
I know this is the major problem - how can I ever trust her again, even if she says she wants to work on it. I don't know. We'll talk about it in counseling I guess, if it goes that far.
I'm still pessimistic now though and am reasonably sure she's going to say she doesn't want to work on anything, wants to give up and divorce now.
Gaaahhhh...but he is NOT the sole reason for our marriage problems. She'll freak out completely if I tell his wife.
I can't do that if there's any chance she's going to work with me.
Trust me, I want to. But breaking them up will only convince her how much I meddle in her life, how sneaky and untrustworthy I am, etc....won't it?
Are you ALL seriously in agreement that I should just call his wife and tell her about it? Even when he is only a symptom and not the cause of our issues? And she thinks she's in love with him?
I dunno. My id wants to call her, my ego tends to agree, but the superego is seeing another side and is telling me to hang back just another couple days, see what EL's answer is - work on the marriage or divorce.
If it's divorce, his wife is the first person I'm calling, trust me on THAT.
My opinion: give her your letter, tell her that you expect a substantial response (not just, "I don't know" or "I need my space right now" or other BS.)
And then, depending on her reply, go over and talk to the wife.....espec. if they have kids. Do they have kids?
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