Wednesday, Leaving Tomorrow
So...
Leaving tomorrow. Feeling good about that. Be nice to see my friend J who moved down there to FL like 3 years ago...and of course my Dad and his wife, too.
Looking forward to just driving around aimlessly, looking at the rich folks, wasting time, and hopefully enjoying the beach and stuff.
Amusingly, I haven't packed yet, but I've selected the appropriate DVD's, pushed a few thousand more songs into my MP3 player, and of course, charging the batteries in my phone, PDA, laptop, and aforementioned MP3 player. :)
Anyway, I thought my wife and I should talk once more about "issues" before I go, so we did.
I told her - I'm going to try to stop being quite the prick I've been the last 2 weeks or so. I said I wouldn't stop talking about things, that I wouldn't consent to the affair, that I still knew it was wrong. No, what I explained was, I will at least respect her privacy as much as I can, that I'll stop making snarky comments about where she is and what she's doing all the time, that I'll stop spying on her things, etc.
Now it's not going to be easy - one thing I said to myself is, even if I DO slip and catch myself looking in her car, or whatever - I'm definitely going to keep my opinions and suspicions to myself.
The only thing we'll talk about is me not giving up, my changes, and divorce things. I will never stop saying it's wrong what she's doing and I would like to try counseling.
I continued by saying - tell me, why are you so certain you can never try again? That it has to end, here and now, without any attempt at getting past the affair and anger?
Her response was more than she has said before - or maybe I just "got it" this time - and I'll try to quote her as close as I can remember:
"For 2 years, you made me feel like you didn't care. You didn't buy me gifts and when I said anything you made me feel like I was materialistic. Do you know what it's like to go to work the day after Mother's Day and when your friends ask what you got, have to say "Nothing?" They say, wow, your husband is an ass and I say yes, he is. And I feel so small and pathetic, JD. You yell and throw things. You didn't seem to care that I worked all day and then came home and worked here too. I don't care what you do or where you go, hire a maid instead of a wife that's what you want. I promised myself a long time ago, I would NEVER let you neglect me again, NEVER let you treat me that way again, NEVER cry again because of you - and that's why I'm not going to try anymore. I tried for 2 years or more and this is what I got. I can't try anymore because I swore that promise to myself, I can't give you the chance to ever treat me like that again. I could never feel anything for you ever again."
She was getting very angry, and I was glad to see it. She has to yell and let it out. I deserve that, of course - what she says there isn't untrue. I did get a few gifts on a few occasions, and cards, but yes, not all the time. And no, that's not petty - she's right, it's the "thought that counts" as they always say. I neglected her, etc. She built up a wall of anger and resentment and to protect herself from hurt she's decided never to let me in again.
I still think if she gets past the anger, not to mention the affair - she might then be able to see what she's getting herself into and think of options. But right now, she can't see it, just wants out - to be free - to be alone.
It's not good. But, it's what I asked for and what I needed - to think about on my time away.
She continues to insist the affair has nothing at all to do with these thoughts and feelings.
But, she also said, when I said how affairs almost never turn out to be a lasting thing - like less than 10% of the time - that, "I'm not so sure it won't last." I really think she is still lost in the affair.
So, nothing really got accomplished. We talked about divorce and how we should use this week to start thinking of how we want it to go, what should be in the agreement and things like that. She's still saying she won't try to take things away from me she can and will do 50/50 custody, though she says she's rather do it 3 days back and forth, and that's fine with me, it will automatically roll over weekends and things that way.
Lastly, about her bringing this guy to our house - she won't promise not to. She says, it's just a house, what does it matter. She really doesn't "get" it I guess. She says she wouldn't care if I had a woman here while she wasn't here - but I'm not so sure.
I kept saying if she had any respect for me she'd respect that request of mine. That it just wasn't right. And I said - if he won't spring for $40 for a freakin' hotel for you, what does that say? This is still OUR house even if we're just roommates and I don't want him here.
She won't agree, but she says she'll "try." She promises to tell me the truth if he's here, rather than lie.
We'll see, I guess.
Well, I'm off. I'll be blogging from Florida, but probably not so long or involved, really. But check in, 'cuz I'll have something up everyday, probably. It is my online journal after all - whatever thoughts are going on while I'm down there, will get logged here...
Leaving tomorrow. Feeling good about that. Be nice to see my friend J who moved down there to FL like 3 years ago...and of course my Dad and his wife, too.
Looking forward to just driving around aimlessly, looking at the rich folks, wasting time, and hopefully enjoying the beach and stuff.
Amusingly, I haven't packed yet, but I've selected the appropriate DVD's, pushed a few thousand more songs into my MP3 player, and of course, charging the batteries in my phone, PDA, laptop, and aforementioned MP3 player. :)
Anyway, I thought my wife and I should talk once more about "issues" before I go, so we did.
I told her - I'm going to try to stop being quite the prick I've been the last 2 weeks or so. I said I wouldn't stop talking about things, that I wouldn't consent to the affair, that I still knew it was wrong. No, what I explained was, I will at least respect her privacy as much as I can, that I'll stop making snarky comments about where she is and what she's doing all the time, that I'll stop spying on her things, etc.
Now it's not going to be easy - one thing I said to myself is, even if I DO slip and catch myself looking in her car, or whatever - I'm definitely going to keep my opinions and suspicions to myself.
The only thing we'll talk about is me not giving up, my changes, and divorce things. I will never stop saying it's wrong what she's doing and I would like to try counseling.
I continued by saying - tell me, why are you so certain you can never try again? That it has to end, here and now, without any attempt at getting past the affair and anger?
Her response was more than she has said before - or maybe I just "got it" this time - and I'll try to quote her as close as I can remember:
"For 2 years, you made me feel like you didn't care. You didn't buy me gifts and when I said anything you made me feel like I was materialistic. Do you know what it's like to go to work the day after Mother's Day and when your friends ask what you got, have to say "Nothing?" They say, wow, your husband is an ass and I say yes, he is. And I feel so small and pathetic, JD. You yell and throw things. You didn't seem to care that I worked all day and then came home and worked here too. I don't care what you do or where you go, hire a maid instead of a wife that's what you want. I promised myself a long time ago, I would NEVER let you neglect me again, NEVER let you treat me that way again, NEVER cry again because of you - and that's why I'm not going to try anymore. I tried for 2 years or more and this is what I got. I can't try anymore because I swore that promise to myself, I can't give you the chance to ever treat me like that again. I could never feel anything for you ever again."
She was getting very angry, and I was glad to see it. She has to yell and let it out. I deserve that, of course - what she says there isn't untrue. I did get a few gifts on a few occasions, and cards, but yes, not all the time. And no, that's not petty - she's right, it's the "thought that counts" as they always say. I neglected her, etc. She built up a wall of anger and resentment and to protect herself from hurt she's decided never to let me in again.
I still think if she gets past the anger, not to mention the affair - she might then be able to see what she's getting herself into and think of options. But right now, she can't see it, just wants out - to be free - to be alone.
It's not good. But, it's what I asked for and what I needed - to think about on my time away.
She continues to insist the affair has nothing at all to do with these thoughts and feelings.
But, she also said, when I said how affairs almost never turn out to be a lasting thing - like less than 10% of the time - that, "I'm not so sure it won't last." I really think she is still lost in the affair.
So, nothing really got accomplished. We talked about divorce and how we should use this week to start thinking of how we want it to go, what should be in the agreement and things like that. She's still saying she won't try to take things away from me she can and will do 50/50 custody, though she says she's rather do it 3 days back and forth, and that's fine with me, it will automatically roll over weekends and things that way.
Lastly, about her bringing this guy to our house - she won't promise not to. She says, it's just a house, what does it matter. She really doesn't "get" it I guess. She says she wouldn't care if I had a woman here while she wasn't here - but I'm not so sure.
I kept saying if she had any respect for me she'd respect that request of mine. That it just wasn't right. And I said - if he won't spring for $40 for a freakin' hotel for you, what does that say? This is still OUR house even if we're just roommates and I don't want him here.
She won't agree, but she says she'll "try." She promises to tell me the truth if he's here, rather than lie.
We'll see, I guess.
Well, I'm off. I'll be blogging from Florida, but probably not so long or involved, really. But check in, 'cuz I'll have something up everyday, probably. It is my online journal after all - whatever thoughts are going on while I'm down there, will get logged here...
posted by Fensty at 11:44 PM
10 Comments:
You need to stop thinking negatively.
Look at this way, she OPENED up to you, which means that her "wall" is not as firmly in place as she would like to think it is.
What you can do is chip her wall away by loving her and showing her that you love her. Believe me, she notices even if she doesn't respond. She doesn't respond because she is scared that you will fail her, but continue on. Pursue her with love.
She just wants to be loved and appreciated. She thinks that is what OM is giving her, but in reality, he is using her, for sex and only sex. He doesn't love her, and he will not leave his wife for her. She is confusing sex with love, sex is NOT love, it is an extension of love, not the love itself.
Learned.
P.S. Have a safe trip!
I will keep doing that...keep pointing out, that I won't give up, that I still understand what's going on and can look past it, that I love her and want to try.
That I can demonstrate it by my actions, not words.
And so that's why I'm trying to stop being such a bitch about it, and snooping, and all that - it is bringing out the worst in me.
I do hope the wall continues to come down and get cracks in it from all this. All I want to do is see what's on the other side.
I do think it's progress, in away. I don't mean to think so negative - but at the same time, I need to stop fooling myself and accept that it MIGHT be over, and get ready to move on...don't you think? Just to be ready, so it doesn't hammer me flat again if it happens?
I think I can do both - stay loving and positive on the one hand, but accept what might happen on the other.
You know, JD, those comments your wife made...well, my wife has (or could have) made most of those same comments.
Your wife said she "tried" for two years. Exactly how did she "try" for two years? Did you go to counseling during those two years? Did she sit down and explain her unhappiness to you during those "two years"? Unless I'm missing something, it sounds to me like she's simply trying to justify her immoral affair. Why did she wait until the AFFAIR to express her profound unhappiness? And does she REALLY think that, even if she ends up marrying the guy, that the guy would bow to her every materialistic want?
I don't understand why women think that BUYING them something means you love them any more or less. While I like to buy things that my wife *needs* or SPECIFICALLY has asked for, I simply do not like WASTING money on crap that fits the Middle American image of marriage: Heart Shaped Boxes of Candy, (Incredibly overpriced) Red Roses, tacky lingerie, diamond jewelry, etc....all of that CRAP that simply is a big marketing ripoff. And I don't like GUESSING what she'll like. And you can bet that if I guess wrong she will (either overtly or covertly) hold it against me.
I am a PRACTICAL person. I would rather save the money so that she won't have to worry in retirement, or so that she can buy something really nice when she needs it or so that the kids can go to a better college. I *think* about my wife...but I don't limit it to those specially marketed holidays. And I think about more important things than jewelry, candy, and roses. I think about health, security, safety, etc.
Our wives want FANTASIES, not REAL LIFE. They should go LIVE with their fuckbuddies and THEN see how they like it! Ha.
I wonder if women are simply caught up in the fairy tales of their youth, or the marketing campaigns of Hallmark et al. If my wife, or my kids, forgot to get me something on Father's Day, I'd be HAPPY---because I would know that they didn't waste money on something I didn't want and/or need. Why can't women think this way?? Why??
Of course, as you related, there is peer pressure from other women ("What did he get you for Valentine's Day?"
"Oh, really. What an asshole pig!"). I can't stand that crap. I don't know of one husband who asks another husband what his wife got HIM for Valentine's Day (or Father's Day, etc.). Men don't really give a shit.
BTW, our counselor suggested this week that I "wine and dine" my wife. (How can one do that when one's spouse is a recovered alcoholic and a not-yet-recovered bulimic??)
As for your "not helping around the house" issues, does she have an anal standard of neatness/cleanliness?
If so, she needs to realize that most (straight) men simply do NOT have the same OBSESSIVE standards that women have.
Anyway, let us know what your wife is telling the relatives about the reasons for the divorce. In my opinion she has not "tried". Instead, she has LIED.
SH
Just be careful you don't crack in the process.
Learned.
I've gotta disagree with you, SH. That stuff *does* matter, a lot, but not for the reasons you state (the "my husband did better than your husband crap). Here's why I like to get things from my husband (and why I miss getting them):
* It means he was thinking of me while we were apart.
* It usually means he either made a specific trip into a store he normally wouldn't or at least into a different department of a store.
* It is not the monetary value of the gift. A tiny cheap something in Mid-January that was thought out means so much more than a dozen overpriced roses at Valentines Day.
* On special occasions (Mothers Day, Valentines, Anniversary, Birthday, and Christmas) I spend a good bit of time thinking about, selecting, and buying the perfect gift for him. I appreciate the same.
* It really *is* the thought that counts, I promise. If she complains about the quality/quantity of the gift, then I can't help you. To me, its that he bought it that matters.
*Exception to above statement: I once received a flower from a gas station where my husband was flirting with the cashier so she told him "happy valentines day" and it reminded him that our anniversary was the day before. That soooo does not count as a gift, the bastard. LOL
And you're generally right about the differences between a man/woman's point of view on cleanliness. GENERALLY, that is. I don't want my husband to keep a spotless house for me. I just want him to pick up his own shit. Is it too much to ask him to actually put his socks/underwear in the hamper, rather than on the floor beside it or beside the bed? He is a grown man. My 4-year-old can do it but my husband cannot.
As far as the TIME of cleanup goes, I think families with two people working comparable hours should share housework and chores equally. (Our situation is different in that my husband works out of town for 4 weeks and then comes home for 2 weeks. The plan is supposed to be that I do EV-ERY-THANG for the 4 weeks and he does half of it on the 2 that he's home, while fiddling away his free time flirting with aforementioned gas station cashiers and playing volunteer fireman and reserve policeman. (As I type that I can't help but think "what a shitty plan" - but my relationship is not the point here.)
Anyway, I got carried away with another of my lists and forgot where I was going. Basically, SH, your wife (and most others) should expect a "partner" out of her husband, in every since of the word. That means you should empty a plate and maybe even pass a broom once in a while. If your marriage isn't worth doing that, maybe you don't want said marriage.
My 3 cents (it was too long for just 2).
Take Care,
Dana
Dana,
The problem with my wife isn't that she wants me to help with the housework. I do. It's that I don't always help when SHE thinks it needs to be done. My tolerance for clutter and MINOR crud is simply greater than hers. If she sees a couple of small spots and a few crumbs on the kitchen vinyl flooring, hell, IT'S TIME TO CLEAN THE ENTIRE FLOOR! It's simply obsessive.
As for gifts, I rarely go out of town, and with her earning 80% of the family income, I have a real problem going out and spending (mostly) her money on a gift that's supposed to be from *me*. Yeah, I know. If it doesn't bother her, it shouldn't bother me. But it does. Plus, I hate trying to figure out what she'd like.
BTW, how do you know that the gifts he buys you aren't guilt gifts to compensate for the wild sexual adventures that are a part of his frequent travels????
SH
Everybody is different when it comes to material things, and I guess some women see gift giving as a part of caring. I show my love by actions, not gifts.
And I could care less if my husband bought me roses. I would prefer he went in a field and picked me daisies. Anybody can go into a flower shop and order flowers, but it takes effort to pick them.
I am not a materialistic person though. If he buys me something, I would rather it be a practical gift. The best thing he bought me was a Kitchen Aid mixer.
I would prefer attention over gifts anyday. Hold my hand, a hug, going for a long walk, and even cuddling on the couch. Just time spent together means a lot.
The breakdown on my marriage had absolutely nothing to do with what my husband bought or didn't buy for me, because I know in my heart that if he had the money, he would buy me the world. It had everything to do with lack of attention, lack of appreciation, and just generally taking me for granted.
As for housecleaning, my husband is absolutely anal about having a spotlessly clean house. But his expectations in this aspect were too high, I can't possibly work 40 hours a week, and come home and pick up after kids and clean the house spotless everyday.
Hubby has learned that I can't do it all, so now he pitches in and if something bothers him, he cleans it, which is fine by me.
Learned.
SH,
"Wild Sexual Adventures" LOL... I guess I need to explain where he spends those 4 weeks: on a boat in the Gulf of Mexico with 3 other men. What he does via video/magazine might be a little more than mild, but there are no gas station attendents in the water. (Believe in Mermaids? LOL)
I just read my own post this morning and realized that I was so totally out of it. 10+ hours of turkey/family/pecan pie can do that to a girl, right?
Anyway, I guess cleaning an entire floor over crumbs would drive me nuts, too, probably as much as the shirts on the floor. I don't expect perfection, I promise. Here's my fear (as far as house cleanliness) : I am terrified that I will need our friends at the police or fire departments and they will have to step over stuff to help us. Isn't that silly?
And Learned: I agree with you on the attention factor. Give me a backrub instead of roses and call me one happy girl. But, SH, you're also right about the Guilt-Relief of some of his gifts. But notice that I said earlier that I "miss" those things. He doesn't bother with guilt gifts anymore. Doubt that he feels guilty now.
Just some more of my thoughts, a little more coherently.
D
Wow, guys, play nice. :)
I actually understand the woman's point of view on gifts, I really do. It doesn't have to be flashy and expensive to my wife, but I know I let her down by not putting thought into things, and being spontaneous and things.
I know that. I really did used to be a very "romantic" person in the classical sense, literary sense of the word. I have and always have the good manners I was raised with - help a woman's coat on and off, pull out the chair, hold the door (not just so you can look at her ass) and all those things. Spontaneous small gifts of appreciation.
It's true I was never one much for CARDS. I hate cards.
But little gifts, flowers for no reason, etc...I did those things.
That was part of the stuff I "lost" though, and I know that hurt her.
The clean thing by the way, not an issue - we're both kinda slobs really. So I'd pick a little bit on her for the messyness but I don't have a complex about it nor does she. I DO like a house to be presentable enough to not be embarrassed in front of company, though, and ours really isn't. It's why I was actually going to hire a maid for us once I got my big promotion a few months ago. I just wanted to give the house a reasonable straightening-up first so the maid would at least know where things are SUPPOSED to be. :)
Anyway...I defnitely lost touch with those parts of myself and I know they'll be back now, if only she'll hang around. If not I guess some other woman in the future will benefit from my mistakes with EL, but I don't want that, even now, I still don't.
JD
OK, I want to step into the fray for a moment ;-)
I think what's really important is that you tell your spouse you love them in the language they best understand -- and I don't mean Swahili or Greek. Several self help books pick up on this and give it various names, but it's really all the same.
Some people feel most loved when a spouse clears a day and says, "Let's spend time together, just you and me." Others feel most loved when their spouse picks up a broom -- unasked. Or maybe it is picking up a momento at a store that reminds you of them.
Whatever it is... do it! It doesn't matter if it's what would make YOU feel loved or not, or if it makes sense to YOU or not.
I used to get so angry because my husband wouldn't help out around the house at all. Now he knows that the surest way to my heart is to do the dishes or pick up the floor. And I know that I can send him over the moon if I talk to him about his flying (something he loves and I could really live without).
Just a thought!
-- Barbara
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