Saturday Night - An Interesting Day
Well, it's been a long day. A strange day. A mostly good day, but as so often happens, at the very end...I'm left with ambiguity.
So...we left the house around noon for the trip to Reading, PA to see the Ringling Brothers, Barnum & Bailey Circus. It's the "road-show" version, a one-ring circus, but not expensive at all and of course this is THE Great American Circus, with the whip-cracking and elephants forced to stand on little pedestals and all the other un-politically-correct stuff.
Was a great show. Everything you'd expect to see in a circus was there, except the "big cats" and a tightrope/high-wire act. We got the dancing horses, the trick riders, the trapeeze artists, the acrobats, the clowns, the elephants, the strong man, the motorcycles-in-the-big-enclosed-ball thing, the acrobats-on-the-giant-double-wheel thing, you name it.
The Boy had a great time. Took it all in, clapped for the horses, loved the motorcycles.
There was one small rough spot on the drive out, somehow conversation strayed into the "wrong area" and I found myself saying, again, I wished she'd think about going to a therapist or counselor of her own. She got the snitty look and said, "No offense, but I don't want your advice." Hmm. I tried to say, the only advice I was giving was that I knew better than to give any advice, but a 3rd party might help her figure out what was right for her, without any bias. She told me "I am talking to someone else at work about it." I was worried, I said, "I thought you told me you couldn't let anyone at work know about that!" and she said, "Oh, I'm not telling them about the other person..."
So, basically, whoever she might be confiding in to talk to doesn't know the whole story, so what's the point? I guess it's better than nothing, but I still wish she'd see a trained therapist who is unbaised and will help her figure out what's right for her. Friends at work, well, they always want you to dump the other person...
But, ok, we got past that and continued talking about regular stuff. Got to the show, had a great time, etc.
After the show, she wanted to hit the JC Penny "outlet" store.
(Aside: Those of you not from Pennsylvania may not know this, but Reading, PA traditionally was the home of all the great "outlet" stores. Like before they became fairly common - seems like every state has at least one or two cities know for "factory outlet" stores and malls now, but Reading's had them since, what...the 50's maybe? 60's anyway....but I digress...)
So, we did that. Generally I hate shopping but lately I've been in the mood to spend some money, I needed some new pants (though if things go according to plan I won't fit them for long!) and so it ended up I did a lot of shopping for myself. She was looking for tops and found none she liked. But she gave me good advice on clothing, and when I'd say things like, when I bought the Ford Racing "NASCAR" windbreaker, "Are you sure you'd want to be seen places with me in this, y'know like at a movie or whatever?" she'd just say, "Sure." So....overall it was nice.
(I don't particularly care for NASCAR, but it was a cool Ford Blue jacket with the Ford Blue Oval logo and Ford Racing on the back...so...I hadda have it, since I don't have a lightweight jacket anyway... :)
On the way out, I saw this nice dress-and-jacket combo that I said, "Hey, you'd look great in this." I meant it sincerely - a co-worker at work has this nice black skirt with bright red roses on it that always looks vaguely Oriental to me, that I've always thought would look great on EL, and this was similiar, though a dress...anyway, she said "I was thinking that too..." It was a ludicriously low $30, so I pretty much insisted she buy it.
She didn't want to bother trying anything on but I insisted, I'd take The Boy out to the car (he was getting antsy by then) and get him in the seat, get some milk in him and quiet him down while she tried it on. Gave her my credit card and left. I said, "One thing - you can't wear it on date night unless it's with me." She sorta laughed and said no, of course not. So, overall, that was nice. She agreed she'd wear it the first time out to a nice simple dinner or something with me.
So, it fit, and she bought it. $30 for a really nice combo that woulda been $120 easy last fall or whenever it was "new." Nothing particularly "out of style" about it it was just a black dress with red rose print and a red sweater-jacker. Since everything else we bought was for me except a pair of shoes, I just paid for it all. I felt pretty nice about that, I usually am not good at "clothes" especially for EL but it seemed I hit it right on that one.
On the way home, early in the trip (it's about an hour) I don't remember how, or why, but somehow we were talking about "it" again, just skirting around the edges. I can't remember exactly. I think I might've said something about how nice our wedding was or something, or vacations, or what I have no idea. But I said something I've been thinking for awhile...let me explain:
When we were on our honeymoon in Hawaii, it was a great time. For the obvious reasons of it being our honeymoon of course, but also because it was Hawaii where I'd always wanted to go... We spent 3 days on Oahu and 5 on Hawaii. (Where I learned that it's actually "Hawai'i" - I never knew that.)
So anyway, one of the "fun" things about the trip was that I've been a fan of the show "Hawaii 5-0" for years (non-Americans or non-TV freaks, this was a cop show from the late 60's/early 70's, hourlong drama, somewhat "campy" now in retrospect, set in Hawaii and shot on location there with lots of shots of buildings, landmarks, etc.) so it was AWESOME to see all the stuff in real life...the capital building, Queen Lili'uokalani's palace (trivia: The ONLY "Royal Palace" on American soil, as it was built before Hawaii became a state and was still an independant monarchy) which was McGarret's office in the show, the King Kamehameha statue, Waikiki beach, Diamond Head, etc.
There is a point to this, stay tuned...
So...anyway...one thing that I thought was just COOL about Oahu was there in Honululu, in front of the Capitol building across the street is a public park where there's always a Kahuna (Hawaiian/Polynesian "priest", basically) who marries people. It's a big tradition I guess, people go there just to get married by the Kahuna. I thought that was just AWESOME and I actually tried to talk my wife at the time into it, but she just thought I was goofy I guess.
OK so the point - on the ride home, for whatever reason...I said to her, "Hey...EL...if we get through this thing, then we are taking another vacation to Hawaii, and we -are- getting married by the Kahuna...ok?" To my surprise she not only said "Sure", but after a moment's reflection said something like..."That was really a nice thing to say. I'm glad you said that."
Woo. I felt like...ok...maybe a tiny little breakthrough here. Nothing Earth shattering, but compared to last Saturday's wedding where on the ride home she said, "Well, that wasn't too terrible a time" I felt like I'd really made some progress today. She had already said it was a very nice day trip, etc. So this seemed like a nice cap.
So, of course, you know it's not going to end here, right?
Well, it's still not TERRIBLE...but again we changed the subject, made more small talk and stuff, talked about the circus, whatever...and this time I remember the conversation, she remarked something about when she wore a new skirt to work last week everyone commented on it and told her how gorgeous she looked.
Well....I said, "You know, I've been telling you a lot lately you look really great when you go to work - that's not just because I'm trying to be different or something - you really do. You look really special most days." To this, she said, "I believe that, because I know it's true."
I thought for a second..."You mean, you know it's true I mean that, or you know it's true you look good?"
"I know it's true I look good - so whether you say it or not, I don't care."
Shit. What the...?!
I said, "Um...well...why is it when other people tell you you look gorgeous, it makes you feel good and happy about yourself, but when I tell you, you just think 'yeah well whatever I know that already.' That seems like you aren't letting me in...like you aren't being fair in your feelings."
This was a bad line of conversation and I should have stopped it, but I didn't.
She came back with something like, "I don't have to be fair to your feelings. I can't help how I feel. I can't force myself to feel something for you that I don't. This is out of my control now."
Again - I should have shut up. But things I've typed here so much just came bubbling out... "Yeah...well...actually, it is still in your control...you...I mean, a person (I know she HATES it when I act like I know what she's thinking or feeling, or try to tell her how "people act" or whatever, and I KNOW that's an asshole thing to do, so I corrected myself and said, "You know, I mean "you" as in a person, I don't mean you "EL." I'm just saying what I think about people, my opionion, no more valid than anyone else's..." basically overcompensated) CAN make choices. A person can choose NOT to let feelings they have control them. A person can choose to NOT act on feelings. And a person can choose to try a little harder to find feelings again they used to have, a person can't choose to "love someone they don't love" but they can choose to at least try - to make an effort to work a little harder on letting feelings come out."
Yeah - it really wasn't a smart conversation. She just said, "Well, I can't help it," again and I said, "Sorry, we shouldn't be talking about this."
So...basically, I think we had a good day and she might've been thinking and feeling a bit differently by the end, BUT then I think that last conversation might have "unmade" a lot of that progress - I ended up telling her "how to act" or at least, how I think she could act if she wanted to. I think it was too soon to try that. She hates when I do that, she has to figure these things out on her own I guess.
She didn't get angry or pissy about it, just sorta blew it off.
When we got home she asked if we could now have some "apart time" and I was more than willing. I wanted to blog this anyway, and I know we had a good day and talked about a lot of things/did a lot of things together and with The Boy that hopefully brought us a bit closer together.
Now in retrospect I guess the convo wasn't as terrible as it could've been. I certainly was careful not to "lecture" or try to control her behavior. I just said, well, the way "I" see it, a person can control themselves and NOT have an affair if it's wrong, and a person can make an effort to try to rediscover feelings that used to be there....not that terrible, was it?
It was just that I said anything at all that was the problem. It's still too soon to the point that I fear she senses me trying to "give advice" or "make a case" and it just pushes her the opposite direction out of...whatever...contraryness, I guess.
So...I don't know.
She also agreed to let me figure out something "fun" to do for the two of us tomorrow, her dad will watch The Boy for awhile. So that's good, too, eh?
All in all, I get the sense she IS trying....at least, she's putting herself in situations where she could feel some of the old emotions again, so I guess she is trying a little.
But the downside is she basically says, so far, it's not really working and she still doesn't love me anymore.
But it's progress....right? She didn't laugh out of hand or blow me off or say "who knows, JD" when I made the comment about getting re-married in Hawaii. She said it was a good idea and she liked it and was glad I brought it up. That's gotta be some kind of progress, even if she still does NOT feel anything special for me anymore, I guess she is leaving the door open, still...
OK, it's late, that's the blog for today. Peace out!
So...we left the house around noon for the trip to Reading, PA to see the Ringling Brothers, Barnum & Bailey Circus. It's the "road-show" version, a one-ring circus, but not expensive at all and of course this is THE Great American Circus, with the whip-cracking and elephants forced to stand on little pedestals and all the other un-politically-correct stuff.
Was a great show. Everything you'd expect to see in a circus was there, except the "big cats" and a tightrope/high-wire act. We got the dancing horses, the trick riders, the trapeeze artists, the acrobats, the clowns, the elephants, the strong man, the motorcycles-in-the-big-enclosed-ball thing, the acrobats-on-the-giant-double-wheel thing, you name it.
The Boy had a great time. Took it all in, clapped for the horses, loved the motorcycles.
There was one small rough spot on the drive out, somehow conversation strayed into the "wrong area" and I found myself saying, again, I wished she'd think about going to a therapist or counselor of her own. She got the snitty look and said, "No offense, but I don't want your advice." Hmm. I tried to say, the only advice I was giving was that I knew better than to give any advice, but a 3rd party might help her figure out what was right for her, without any bias. She told me "I am talking to someone else at work about it." I was worried, I said, "I thought you told me you couldn't let anyone at work know about that!" and she said, "Oh, I'm not telling them about the other person..."
So, basically, whoever she might be confiding in to talk to doesn't know the whole story, so what's the point? I guess it's better than nothing, but I still wish she'd see a trained therapist who is unbaised and will help her figure out what's right for her. Friends at work, well, they always want you to dump the other person...
But, ok, we got past that and continued talking about regular stuff. Got to the show, had a great time, etc.
After the show, she wanted to hit the JC Penny "outlet" store.
(Aside: Those of you not from Pennsylvania may not know this, but Reading, PA traditionally was the home of all the great "outlet" stores. Like before they became fairly common - seems like every state has at least one or two cities know for "factory outlet" stores and malls now, but Reading's had them since, what...the 50's maybe? 60's anyway....but I digress...)
So, we did that. Generally I hate shopping but lately I've been in the mood to spend some money, I needed some new pants (though if things go according to plan I won't fit them for long!) and so it ended up I did a lot of shopping for myself. She was looking for tops and found none she liked. But she gave me good advice on clothing, and when I'd say things like, when I bought the Ford Racing "NASCAR" windbreaker, "Are you sure you'd want to be seen places with me in this, y'know like at a movie or whatever?" she'd just say, "Sure." So....overall it was nice.
(I don't particularly care for NASCAR, but it was a cool Ford Blue jacket with the Ford Blue Oval logo and Ford Racing on the back...so...I hadda have it, since I don't have a lightweight jacket anyway... :)
On the way out, I saw this nice dress-and-jacket combo that I said, "Hey, you'd look great in this." I meant it sincerely - a co-worker at work has this nice black skirt with bright red roses on it that always looks vaguely Oriental to me, that I've always thought would look great on EL, and this was similiar, though a dress...anyway, she said "I was thinking that too..." It was a ludicriously low $30, so I pretty much insisted she buy it.
She didn't want to bother trying anything on but I insisted, I'd take The Boy out to the car (he was getting antsy by then) and get him in the seat, get some milk in him and quiet him down while she tried it on. Gave her my credit card and left. I said, "One thing - you can't wear it on date night unless it's with me." She sorta laughed and said no, of course not. So, overall, that was nice. She agreed she'd wear it the first time out to a nice simple dinner or something with me.
So, it fit, and she bought it. $30 for a really nice combo that woulda been $120 easy last fall or whenever it was "new." Nothing particularly "out of style" about it it was just a black dress with red rose print and a red sweater-jacker. Since everything else we bought was for me except a pair of shoes, I just paid for it all. I felt pretty nice about that, I usually am not good at "clothes" especially for EL but it seemed I hit it right on that one.
On the way home, early in the trip (it's about an hour) I don't remember how, or why, but somehow we were talking about "it" again, just skirting around the edges. I can't remember exactly. I think I might've said something about how nice our wedding was or something, or vacations, or what I have no idea. But I said something I've been thinking for awhile...let me explain:
When we were on our honeymoon in Hawaii, it was a great time. For the obvious reasons of it being our honeymoon of course, but also because it was Hawaii where I'd always wanted to go... We spent 3 days on Oahu and 5 on Hawaii. (Where I learned that it's actually "Hawai'i" - I never knew that.)
So anyway, one of the "fun" things about the trip was that I've been a fan of the show "Hawaii 5-0" for years (non-Americans or non-TV freaks, this was a cop show from the late 60's/early 70's, hourlong drama, somewhat "campy" now in retrospect, set in Hawaii and shot on location there with lots of shots of buildings, landmarks, etc.) so it was AWESOME to see all the stuff in real life...the capital building, Queen Lili'uokalani's palace (trivia: The ONLY "Royal Palace" on American soil, as it was built before Hawaii became a state and was still an independant monarchy) which was McGarret's office in the show, the King Kamehameha statue, Waikiki beach, Diamond Head, etc.
There is a point to this, stay tuned...
So...anyway...one thing that I thought was just COOL about Oahu was there in Honululu, in front of the Capitol building across the street is a public park where there's always a Kahuna (Hawaiian/Polynesian "priest", basically) who marries people. It's a big tradition I guess, people go there just to get married by the Kahuna. I thought that was just AWESOME and I actually tried to talk my wife at the time into it, but she just thought I was goofy I guess.
OK so the point - on the ride home, for whatever reason...I said to her, "Hey...EL...if we get through this thing, then we are taking another vacation to Hawaii, and we -are- getting married by the Kahuna...ok?" To my surprise she not only said "Sure", but after a moment's reflection said something like..."That was really a nice thing to say. I'm glad you said that."
Woo. I felt like...ok...maybe a tiny little breakthrough here. Nothing Earth shattering, but compared to last Saturday's wedding where on the ride home she said, "Well, that wasn't too terrible a time" I felt like I'd really made some progress today. She had already said it was a very nice day trip, etc. So this seemed like a nice cap.
So, of course, you know it's not going to end here, right?
Well, it's still not TERRIBLE...but again we changed the subject, made more small talk and stuff, talked about the circus, whatever...and this time I remember the conversation, she remarked something about when she wore a new skirt to work last week everyone commented on it and told her how gorgeous she looked.
Well....I said, "You know, I've been telling you a lot lately you look really great when you go to work - that's not just because I'm trying to be different or something - you really do. You look really special most days." To this, she said, "I believe that, because I know it's true."
I thought for a second..."You mean, you know it's true I mean that, or you know it's true you look good?"
"I know it's true I look good - so whether you say it or not, I don't care."
Shit. What the...?!
I said, "Um...well...why is it when other people tell you you look gorgeous, it makes you feel good and happy about yourself, but when I tell you, you just think 'yeah well whatever I know that already.' That seems like you aren't letting me in...like you aren't being fair in your feelings."
This was a bad line of conversation and I should have stopped it, but I didn't.
She came back with something like, "I don't have to be fair to your feelings. I can't help how I feel. I can't force myself to feel something for you that I don't. This is out of my control now."
Again - I should have shut up. But things I've typed here so much just came bubbling out... "Yeah...well...actually, it is still in your control...you...I mean, a person (I know she HATES it when I act like I know what she's thinking or feeling, or try to tell her how "people act" or whatever, and I KNOW that's an asshole thing to do, so I corrected myself and said, "You know, I mean "you" as in a person, I don't mean you "EL." I'm just saying what I think about people, my opionion, no more valid than anyone else's..." basically overcompensated) CAN make choices. A person can choose NOT to let feelings they have control them. A person can choose to NOT act on feelings. And a person can choose to try a little harder to find feelings again they used to have, a person can't choose to "love someone they don't love" but they can choose to at least try - to make an effort to work a little harder on letting feelings come out."
Yeah - it really wasn't a smart conversation. She just said, "Well, I can't help it," again and I said, "Sorry, we shouldn't be talking about this."
So...basically, I think we had a good day and she might've been thinking and feeling a bit differently by the end, BUT then I think that last conversation might have "unmade" a lot of that progress - I ended up telling her "how to act" or at least, how I think she could act if she wanted to. I think it was too soon to try that. She hates when I do that, she has to figure these things out on her own I guess.
She didn't get angry or pissy about it, just sorta blew it off.
When we got home she asked if we could now have some "apart time" and I was more than willing. I wanted to blog this anyway, and I know we had a good day and talked about a lot of things/did a lot of things together and with The Boy that hopefully brought us a bit closer together.
Now in retrospect I guess the convo wasn't as terrible as it could've been. I certainly was careful not to "lecture" or try to control her behavior. I just said, well, the way "I" see it, a person can control themselves and NOT have an affair if it's wrong, and a person can make an effort to try to rediscover feelings that used to be there....not that terrible, was it?
It was just that I said anything at all that was the problem. It's still too soon to the point that I fear she senses me trying to "give advice" or "make a case" and it just pushes her the opposite direction out of...whatever...contraryness, I guess.
So...I don't know.
She also agreed to let me figure out something "fun" to do for the two of us tomorrow, her dad will watch The Boy for awhile. So that's good, too, eh?
All in all, I get the sense she IS trying....at least, she's putting herself in situations where she could feel some of the old emotions again, so I guess she is trying a little.
But the downside is she basically says, so far, it's not really working and she still doesn't love me anymore.
But it's progress....right? She didn't laugh out of hand or blow me off or say "who knows, JD" when I made the comment about getting re-married in Hawaii. She said it was a good idea and she liked it and was glad I brought it up. That's gotta be some kind of progress, even if she still does NOT feel anything special for me anymore, I guess she is leaving the door open, still...
OK, it's late, that's the blog for today. Peace out!

2 Comments:
I gather there are quite a few of them.
I wonder, should I read some of them...or not. I'm not sure if it would help me.
My first instinct is that it would - the knowledge that others are coping, what they are doing, how it's working, that I'm not alone...
But, then I think...maybe I'm better off "going it alone" through some of this, so as to be true to myself and not grab at other people's straws.
Anyone have an opinion?
Jennifer:
She has mentioned it, twice. Both times, I said no, I would consider that giving up and I didn't think I was there yet.
I didn't even discuss it in any length at all, I don't know who she thought would do the leaving, but I'm pretty sure she assumed it would be me.
And I'm not doing that, no how, no way, as I've posted.
So, the ball is in her court. I can't stop her from leaving of course, but to answer that part of your question, I assume the reason she isn't is threefold:
#1. She probably knows I'd refuse to let The Boy leave, so she doesn't want to leave him.
#2. She really can't afford her own place seperately, and I don't think she's got too many options on places to go. Her parents won't take her (she told me that at some point recently, her parents once told her they would never "take her in" if she had problems) and her best friend lives with HER parents. But I'm sure she has work friends or things that might be willing to take her in for some time, however that leads to #3:
#3. She'd be unable to deny what was going on to pretty much everyone at that point. And I don't think she's ready to cross that bridge.
Also, one of the things I have to ask the lawyer is, if she leaves "unofficially" like that (IE, not as part of a court or mediated seperation, whatever that's called) that may help MY case. Another reason I'm not leaving my house.
So I think that's it. I know the idea has crossed her mind and I know she'd be perfectly fine if I left, but I refuse to make it that easy, neat, and clean for her.
Mind games or manipulation, I suppose, but my therapist agrees that's a "reasonable" thing to be saying/doing, not a negative control issue thing.
JD
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