Weekend Update, Pt II.
Wow. The first part of this Weekend Update has generated quite a lot of commentary, and I don't want to detract from that, but it occurs to me I wasn't quite finished yet.
In fact, I disabled comments on this post. If you'd like to comment, just scroll down to "Weekend Update" and comment on that thread. So we keep everything in one place.
Anyway….more about this long conversation between me and EL:
One of the things that was agreed upon was that I would give her some of my 401k - up to half - as compensation towards any equity in the home. This seemed like a fair solution, as she'd of course be entitled to up to half of it anyway, but was being "nice" in saying she didn't want any of my 401k or my stop options or other assets.
I DO appreciate that she has always said that - I think it's from guilt and shame, but I also think she DESERVES to feel that way so I'm fine with it - and have always tried to say so on this blog. She COULD be being a LOT more vicious in this divorce than she is, and don't think I don't know that.
So, I agreed that once we got the house appraisal back, we'd take the appraisal amount, get AT LEAST TWO realtor's to come in and say what we could REALLY get for the house, come up with an amount we both considered to be "fair" that we could sell it for, and then subtract out the amount of the payoff on the current mortgage, subtract a sum that would have gone to pay the realtor's commissions, costs, fees, etc. and whatever was left, split in half. Which I would then give her that amount of my 401k for her to roll over into her own IRA.
I thought that was nice progress. I agreed to up to half, and if it would be more than that, that we should probably just sell the house then anyway and each walk away with a little nest egg. Realistically, though, I do not expect that. I expect we will barely be breaking even on the house in fact.
We also discussed custody, time with each of us, and child support dollars.
She was adamant on one thing - this is where the "if you don't agree to this, I will fight you and get spouse support and other things, too" comment came from. She said she felt The Boy should be with his mom more than his dad. Suddenly her idea of "hiring a psychiatrist to get an independent opinion" went out the window. I suspect the reason why for that is that she knows darn well a shrink will agree with me and not her. But, nonetheless, she's not unreasonable and so again, I think I'm going to just agree with her to save everyone grief.
What she wants is she gets him 4 days, I get him 3. Each week. This seems to be a HUGE point with her. I have to run this by my lawyer, of course, to make sure there's not some legal "trick" going on here, but otherwise I'll be OK with this. I asked that we'd reevaluate that yearly and she said yes. I asked that we still consider child support and "custody decisions" as if it were 50/50 and she agreed with that also.
She had some dollar figures for child support, that I won't go into here, but I didn't find them to be outrageous. She asked that we split his day care costs 63/37% based on income and I thought that was fair. She then had a dollar amount on top of that for child support which seemed reasonable, though again I need to of course have my lawyer verify that it's fair. Pennsylvania, as I assume all other states, has simple fomulas for figuring this out based on # of days spent with each parent, income, etc. I also told EL that that had to be based on her NEW salary (she recently got a raise) and not 2004's W-2's, and, that we'd also revisit THIS number every year, because she is on track to start earning the same if not more than me very soon.
All of which was agreed to. So, that part, was a productive call.
All we need to do now is codify that with the lawyers and we'll be well on the way to an agreement we can both live with. And she does appear to still be sticking to her convictions to not "profit" on her divorce or take my son away from me. So don't think I'm not thankful for that, because I am!
No…all the flap in comments on the "Weekend Update" post seems to be revolving around my taping of the call, and reasons for that, and if EL is justified in being "afraid" of me.
Let me shed just a bit more light on this. As a way of getting onto the subject, I had to "let out" a little info to start the conversation. I THINK I'd already blogged this here, but let me recap:
Before Christmas sometime, her mother was at the bank where my aunt works. She had previously been the one to "break the news" to my family by telling my aunt, "Oh, you won't be seeing EL at Christmas, they're getting a divorce." I know I blogged that part. So my aunt told me that that evening which was the night the Aunts and I went to dinner, and said she'd ask her next time she saw her, "why?"
So - she did. EL's mother replied, "Oh, JD thinks EL is sleeping around, but I assure you she's not." Also, "But JD is already searching for a replacement on the Internet."
Now, of course, EL maintains she's told her mom the "real truth." I doubt it, but not entirely based on that comment - her mom would lie anyway, and in fact understandably, to anyone about that anyway, wouldn't she? I just doubt it because I don't think EL would say that. Then again, her and her mom are both twisted the same way, so perhaps she WOULD, because EL clearly doesn't think she's doing anything in the least bit wrong by sleeping with a married man who's wife has no idea.
OK, well my point is that I used this to get the conversation started. Tape rolling, I said, "EL, there's something else bothering me. I know you are lying to your family, because now they are lying to MY family about what's going on! I have respected you in this, you know - much as I'd like to, much as I sometimes want to, I have never told ANYONE in your family the truth about your affair with OG, when it started, or any of that. But now I find out your mom is telling my family that not only are you NOT sleeping around, but that I'm trying to replace you on the Internet? And how would she know something like that anyway?"
(See, at this point, I had no idea what that statement meant, but assumed it meant my personal ad. Thing is, my personal ad CLEARLY says, "I am looking for friends, social situations and dinner dates to get to know people, nothing else since I'm in the middle of a divorce." I'd post it verbatim here but I don't want anyone searching it out, you know? And HER personal ad says she's looking for a bi female to experiment with…so again, by any objective measure here, sexuality aside, who's got the moral high ground? One person looking for dinner dates, the other for "experimentation." I rest my case.)
So, we get to talking on that. That's where I keep talking about her affair, mentioning him by name, and she never comes right out and admits to sleeping with him (as I wish she would have) but neither did she ever deny it or anything. In my mind, though, she does that so that she can someday tell people, "It was easier not to argue with him." So I still wish she'd come right out and say it - yes, I slept with OG that Friday night.
The spouse support conversation went something like this. Paraphrased, but this was the "gist" of it:
"My lawyer says the affair means nothing towards spousal support, because once I told you I wanted a divorce, we were considered seperated."
"Well, I don't think your lawyer knows all the facts, EL. That's all I'm going to say. Mine is quite certain you wouldn't get it, but why are we arguing anyway, I said I was OK with these numbers and the 4/3 day thing."
"Yes, well, I just want you to know - I don't care about ANYTHING else. I don't care about my reputation, I don't care about OG, OG's wife, my family, my friends - NOTHING is more important than The Boy so if you try to fight me, then I'll do whatever I have to do and I don't care what you tell about anything."
"There's no need for that. I told you. It's fine."
So again - who's blackmailing who here anyway? Seems like we're doing it to each other, dancing around this affair thing. She knows as well as I do, it's the only leverage either of us has. Once I'd reveal it, she'd slay me in court. If I don't reveal it, she gets to smear my name and I can't do dick.
Anyway, that's my motive for taping this stuff. Not for court - because we both agree, court is bad for both of us, expensive, and no help to The Boy at all! We WANT to agree, be amicable, and do what's best for The Boy and ourselves in this. I REALLY believe that and I think she does too.
The taping is for after. So I can quietly call her brother, who incidentally hasn't spoken to me since that one day (I have a feeling EL told HIM a bunch of lies about me, no idea what, not sure if I should call him or let it lie…probably not going to bother now) and say my side. He'll listen, and he'll make sure her Dad knows the truth. So I can play it for my OWN family someday, to show them, look - I wasn't making it up, I'm not insane, yeah I taped a call, but listen to what she says.
Several commenters said I could someday play it for The Boy. Let me tell you, that has never occurred to me. I don't think he'd EVER need to hear that in his life, ever. But - you know, I might think about telling EL that I would if I ever found out she wasn't truthful with him. She doesn't have to admit to her son she had an affair, but she has to admit to him that his Daddy never hurt her, and she just didn't want to be married anymore, but he is a good and nice Daddy and loves his boy very much, and his boy should NEVER worry about Daddy hurting him, being mean, or anything but loving him as much as he can. I'd be perfectly satisfied with that. Some things a kid never needs to know, and he'll never hear it from me if it didn't come that.
Read back over the blog, somewhere way back here I wrote something that I tried to tell EL that I know in my heart to be true: The Boy will never really understand, if both parents are truthful (and don't bring up the affair) why his Mommy left his Daddy. Because, I am bound and determined if nothing else on Earth that my son will NEVER see the side of me that EL saw these last 2 years. Those actions, behaviors, etc. are gone forever. I WANTED that to be for HER AND HIM BOTH, whien this started, but she doesn't want that and so be it. But someday he's going to ask EL, "Why did you leave Daddy?" and when she says because I yelled around the house, and threw things, he won't believe it, because he'll never see that part of me.
And if that's all she said, I wouldn't deny it to him. "Daddy yelled too much back then, and scared your Mommy, and that's why he doesn't do it anymore, because he doesn't want to scare you that way. Mommy was too scared to stay married, but you don't have to ever be scared to be with me, because Daddy doesn't do that anymore, does he?"
If she says less than that, I do think that might be better. "Mommy and Daddy just didn't love each other to be married anymore. We loved you though so we wanted to make two great houses for you to live in." I'd be just as happy with that. AS he gets older, who knows what other facts might come out, but I'll never talk about her affair as long as she never says I did more than yell and throw a couple things.
OK?
Now, weirdest thing of all - apparently, this "JD is looking for a replacement on the Internet" thing isn't what I thought. In the conversation, EL revelated that her other brother (TS was the one who called me trying to see if I wanted him to attempt to talk to her. This brother we're now talking about was BL) BL was "Afraid you'd screw me in the divorce the way his wife screwed him, and so he searched you out on the Internet, and found some stuff, and told my mom that, and said I should call him, but I told her I don't care, I don't want to know what he's talking about."
That's weird. I'm not sure if I should believe it or not. I DO know that, if I GOOGLE myself - using my real name, or my online name that I have always used, or any Email addresses that I use - I don't find anything the least incriminating.
I find some 10+ year old USENET posts I'm not particularly thrilled about, true. Things written in 1993 and 1994 before I met EL or when we were just dating. Not porno crap, either, but stuff that reveals a little too much about my depressed personality (suicide newsgroups) and party pasttimes (drinking, partying, crashing cars, etc…hey, I was in my 20's!!) that I'm not super excited about ever coming up in court.
Aside from that, nothing the least bit salacious. Posts on Disney newsgroups. Hundreds of posts on Mustang newsgroups, and other car groups. Posts on web-boards for cars, movies, Disney again. Computer help. Cellular phone newsgroups and web boards.
Honestly, I'm clueless. The ONLY way he could have found my personal ad would have been to go to the site I'm on, put in our town, and search for men my age. I guess that would work, but all he'd find was that ad that says I'm looking for friends for dinner dates and social situations. Good luck with that! And it wasn't posted until AFTER my divorce was filed.
I'm also miffed because BL is a brother who SHOULD understand this. His wife went nutty on him, ran off with some guy she met on the internet, took the kids, claimed all kinds of insane lies in court, etc. BL and I have always gotten along the best of any of her brothers. He's my same age, geeky in my same ways, and likes most of the same things. How ironic indeed. Obviously blood ties are thickest but I'd have expected him to at least be cautiously neutral. I haven't decided if I want to call HIM yet and ask him nicely what he thinks he found…again, probably won't, clearly won't serve any good purpose. But I wonder if it's even true, or if EL just made that up for some reason.
There you have it. The whole messy weekend story. This was all Friday, by Saturday evening I was already feeling way too sick to blog…nothing else really happened.
(Remember - Comments disabled on this post. Comment on Weekend Update Pt I if you wish)
In fact, I disabled comments on this post. If you'd like to comment, just scroll down to "Weekend Update" and comment on that thread. So we keep everything in one place.
Anyway….more about this long conversation between me and EL:
One of the things that was agreed upon was that I would give her some of my 401k - up to half - as compensation towards any equity in the home. This seemed like a fair solution, as she'd of course be entitled to up to half of it anyway, but was being "nice" in saying she didn't want any of my 401k or my stop options or other assets.
I DO appreciate that she has always said that - I think it's from guilt and shame, but I also think she DESERVES to feel that way so I'm fine with it - and have always tried to say so on this blog. She COULD be being a LOT more vicious in this divorce than she is, and don't think I don't know that.
So, I agreed that once we got the house appraisal back, we'd take the appraisal amount, get AT LEAST TWO realtor's to come in and say what we could REALLY get for the house, come up with an amount we both considered to be "fair" that we could sell it for, and then subtract out the amount of the payoff on the current mortgage, subtract a sum that would have gone to pay the realtor's commissions, costs, fees, etc. and whatever was left, split in half. Which I would then give her that amount of my 401k for her to roll over into her own IRA.
I thought that was nice progress. I agreed to up to half, and if it would be more than that, that we should probably just sell the house then anyway and each walk away with a little nest egg. Realistically, though, I do not expect that. I expect we will barely be breaking even on the house in fact.
We also discussed custody, time with each of us, and child support dollars.
She was adamant on one thing - this is where the "if you don't agree to this, I will fight you and get spouse support and other things, too" comment came from. She said she felt The Boy should be with his mom more than his dad. Suddenly her idea of "hiring a psychiatrist to get an independent opinion" went out the window. I suspect the reason why for that is that she knows darn well a shrink will agree with me and not her. But, nonetheless, she's not unreasonable and so again, I think I'm going to just agree with her to save everyone grief.
What she wants is she gets him 4 days, I get him 3. Each week. This seems to be a HUGE point with her. I have to run this by my lawyer, of course, to make sure there's not some legal "trick" going on here, but otherwise I'll be OK with this. I asked that we'd reevaluate that yearly and she said yes. I asked that we still consider child support and "custody decisions" as if it were 50/50 and she agreed with that also.
She had some dollar figures for child support, that I won't go into here, but I didn't find them to be outrageous. She asked that we split his day care costs 63/37% based on income and I thought that was fair. She then had a dollar amount on top of that for child support which seemed reasonable, though again I need to of course have my lawyer verify that it's fair. Pennsylvania, as I assume all other states, has simple fomulas for figuring this out based on # of days spent with each parent, income, etc. I also told EL that that had to be based on her NEW salary (she recently got a raise) and not 2004's W-2's, and, that we'd also revisit THIS number every year, because she is on track to start earning the same if not more than me very soon.
All of which was agreed to. So, that part, was a productive call.
All we need to do now is codify that with the lawyers and we'll be well on the way to an agreement we can both live with. And she does appear to still be sticking to her convictions to not "profit" on her divorce or take my son away from me. So don't think I'm not thankful for that, because I am!
No…all the flap in comments on the "Weekend Update" post seems to be revolving around my taping of the call, and reasons for that, and if EL is justified in being "afraid" of me.
Let me shed just a bit more light on this. As a way of getting onto the subject, I had to "let out" a little info to start the conversation. I THINK I'd already blogged this here, but let me recap:
Before Christmas sometime, her mother was at the bank where my aunt works. She had previously been the one to "break the news" to my family by telling my aunt, "Oh, you won't be seeing EL at Christmas, they're getting a divorce." I know I blogged that part. So my aunt told me that that evening which was the night the Aunts and I went to dinner, and said she'd ask her next time she saw her, "why?"
So - she did. EL's mother replied, "Oh, JD thinks EL is sleeping around, but I assure you she's not." Also, "But JD is already searching for a replacement on the Internet."
Now, of course, EL maintains she's told her mom the "real truth." I doubt it, but not entirely based on that comment - her mom would lie anyway, and in fact understandably, to anyone about that anyway, wouldn't she? I just doubt it because I don't think EL would say that. Then again, her and her mom are both twisted the same way, so perhaps she WOULD, because EL clearly doesn't think she's doing anything in the least bit wrong by sleeping with a married man who's wife has no idea.
OK, well my point is that I used this to get the conversation started. Tape rolling, I said, "EL, there's something else bothering me. I know you are lying to your family, because now they are lying to MY family about what's going on! I have respected you in this, you know - much as I'd like to, much as I sometimes want to, I have never told ANYONE in your family the truth about your affair with OG, when it started, or any of that. But now I find out your mom is telling my family that not only are you NOT sleeping around, but that I'm trying to replace you on the Internet? And how would she know something like that anyway?"
(See, at this point, I had no idea what that statement meant, but assumed it meant my personal ad. Thing is, my personal ad CLEARLY says, "I am looking for friends, social situations and dinner dates to get to know people, nothing else since I'm in the middle of a divorce." I'd post it verbatim here but I don't want anyone searching it out, you know? And HER personal ad says she's looking for a bi female to experiment with…so again, by any objective measure here, sexuality aside, who's got the moral high ground? One person looking for dinner dates, the other for "experimentation." I rest my case.)
So, we get to talking on that. That's where I keep talking about her affair, mentioning him by name, and she never comes right out and admits to sleeping with him (as I wish she would have) but neither did she ever deny it or anything. In my mind, though, she does that so that she can someday tell people, "It was easier not to argue with him." So I still wish she'd come right out and say it - yes, I slept with OG that Friday night.
The spouse support conversation went something like this. Paraphrased, but this was the "gist" of it:
"My lawyer says the affair means nothing towards spousal support, because once I told you I wanted a divorce, we were considered seperated."
"Well, I don't think your lawyer knows all the facts, EL. That's all I'm going to say. Mine is quite certain you wouldn't get it, but why are we arguing anyway, I said I was OK with these numbers and the 4/3 day thing."
"Yes, well, I just want you to know - I don't care about ANYTHING else. I don't care about my reputation, I don't care about OG, OG's wife, my family, my friends - NOTHING is more important than The Boy so if you try to fight me, then I'll do whatever I have to do and I don't care what you tell about anything."
"There's no need for that. I told you. It's fine."
So again - who's blackmailing who here anyway? Seems like we're doing it to each other, dancing around this affair thing. She knows as well as I do, it's the only leverage either of us has. Once I'd reveal it, she'd slay me in court. If I don't reveal it, she gets to smear my name and I can't do dick.
Anyway, that's my motive for taping this stuff. Not for court - because we both agree, court is bad for both of us, expensive, and no help to The Boy at all! We WANT to agree, be amicable, and do what's best for The Boy and ourselves in this. I REALLY believe that and I think she does too.
The taping is for after. So I can quietly call her brother, who incidentally hasn't spoken to me since that one day (I have a feeling EL told HIM a bunch of lies about me, no idea what, not sure if I should call him or let it lie…probably not going to bother now) and say my side. He'll listen, and he'll make sure her Dad knows the truth. So I can play it for my OWN family someday, to show them, look - I wasn't making it up, I'm not insane, yeah I taped a call, but listen to what she says.
Several commenters said I could someday play it for The Boy. Let me tell you, that has never occurred to me. I don't think he'd EVER need to hear that in his life, ever. But - you know, I might think about telling EL that I would if I ever found out she wasn't truthful with him. She doesn't have to admit to her son she had an affair, but she has to admit to him that his Daddy never hurt her, and she just didn't want to be married anymore, but he is a good and nice Daddy and loves his boy very much, and his boy should NEVER worry about Daddy hurting him, being mean, or anything but loving him as much as he can. I'd be perfectly satisfied with that. Some things a kid never needs to know, and he'll never hear it from me if it didn't come that.
Read back over the blog, somewhere way back here I wrote something that I tried to tell EL that I know in my heart to be true: The Boy will never really understand, if both parents are truthful (and don't bring up the affair) why his Mommy left his Daddy. Because, I am bound and determined if nothing else on Earth that my son will NEVER see the side of me that EL saw these last 2 years. Those actions, behaviors, etc. are gone forever. I WANTED that to be for HER AND HIM BOTH, whien this started, but she doesn't want that and so be it. But someday he's going to ask EL, "Why did you leave Daddy?" and when she says because I yelled around the house, and threw things, he won't believe it, because he'll never see that part of me.
And if that's all she said, I wouldn't deny it to him. "Daddy yelled too much back then, and scared your Mommy, and that's why he doesn't do it anymore, because he doesn't want to scare you that way. Mommy was too scared to stay married, but you don't have to ever be scared to be with me, because Daddy doesn't do that anymore, does he?"
If she says less than that, I do think that might be better. "Mommy and Daddy just didn't love each other to be married anymore. We loved you though so we wanted to make two great houses for you to live in." I'd be just as happy with that. AS he gets older, who knows what other facts might come out, but I'll never talk about her affair as long as she never says I did more than yell and throw a couple things.
OK?
Now, weirdest thing of all - apparently, this "JD is looking for a replacement on the Internet" thing isn't what I thought. In the conversation, EL revelated that her other brother (TS was the one who called me trying to see if I wanted him to attempt to talk to her. This brother we're now talking about was BL) BL was "Afraid you'd screw me in the divorce the way his wife screwed him, and so he searched you out on the Internet, and found some stuff, and told my mom that, and said I should call him, but I told her I don't care, I don't want to know what he's talking about."
That's weird. I'm not sure if I should believe it or not. I DO know that, if I GOOGLE myself - using my real name, or my online name that I have always used, or any Email addresses that I use - I don't find anything the least incriminating.
I find some 10+ year old USENET posts I'm not particularly thrilled about, true. Things written in 1993 and 1994 before I met EL or when we were just dating. Not porno crap, either, but stuff that reveals a little too much about my depressed personality (suicide newsgroups) and party pasttimes (drinking, partying, crashing cars, etc…hey, I was in my 20's!!) that I'm not super excited about ever coming up in court.
Aside from that, nothing the least bit salacious. Posts on Disney newsgroups. Hundreds of posts on Mustang newsgroups, and other car groups. Posts on web-boards for cars, movies, Disney again. Computer help. Cellular phone newsgroups and web boards.
Honestly, I'm clueless. The ONLY way he could have found my personal ad would have been to go to the site I'm on, put in our town, and search for men my age. I guess that would work, but all he'd find was that ad that says I'm looking for friends for dinner dates and social situations. Good luck with that! And it wasn't posted until AFTER my divorce was filed.
I'm also miffed because BL is a brother who SHOULD understand this. His wife went nutty on him, ran off with some guy she met on the internet, took the kids, claimed all kinds of insane lies in court, etc. BL and I have always gotten along the best of any of her brothers. He's my same age, geeky in my same ways, and likes most of the same things. How ironic indeed. Obviously blood ties are thickest but I'd have expected him to at least be cautiously neutral. I haven't decided if I want to call HIM yet and ask him nicely what he thinks he found…again, probably won't, clearly won't serve any good purpose. But I wonder if it's even true, or if EL just made that up for some reason.
There you have it. The whole messy weekend story. This was all Friday, by Saturday evening I was already feeling way too sick to blog…nothing else really happened.
(Remember - Comments disabled on this post. Comment on Weekend Update Pt I if you wish)
posted by Fensty at 2:14 PM
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